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Invisibleboeha
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Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 358
help needed about psilocybin extraction...
    #3377688 - 11/18/04 06:08 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Hey guys !

This will be a pretty long post; just a fair warning for those who don't like reading... :smile:

Here it goes:
as usual, a friend of mine received some mushrooms (Copelandia cyanescens) , and he would like to know some things about extracting the goods...
So I'd thought I'd quickly look up some information for him; but things didn't seem that clear to me.

1) So far, sites (Erowid/Shroomery) have told me that dry mushrooms only contain Psilocybin . (and the psilocin is gone)
2) Psilocybin is told to be water soluble, psilocin not being soluble in water
3) Citric acid is supposed to help the extraction; so a slightly acidic water is optimal for extraction.

So what I can conclude: These dry mushrooms can be put in water for like 2 days, so the psilocybin is being extracted from the mushrooms.

Now the things I don't know:
1) What's the psilocybin/psilocin - rate of Copelandia Cyanescens? (I used to have a link to a graph were all the strains and their potency was listed, but I've lost it :frown:  )
2) Am I correct about the mushroom-water? Because that's what my friend wants; he doesn't like the taste of mushrooms; so just drinking some water (and discarding the mush-goo) and then tripping balls is a big improvement for him! :wink:

I just thought I'd ask the Shroomery audience first; I'm not really an expert in narcotics;
so I wouldn't wanna give my friend wrong advice; mushrooms aren't meant to be wasted just like that! :smile:

Thanks in advance!  :mushroom2:

----

PS: To anyone: Try this strain!! It's a very, very strong trip! (And as for the taste: not quite too fond of it myself, but it's not that difficult: just chew and swallow :smile: )

----


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377692 - 11/18/04 06:11 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Psilocybin is water soluble, are you trying to just make mushroom tea? Or like purified psilocybin powder?


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Me, Myself, and GOD


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Invisibleboeha
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Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 358
Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3377702 - 11/18/04 06:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DMTelepath said:
Psilocybin is water soluble, are you trying to just make mushroom tea? Or like purified psilocybin powder?




No, not to the level of powder;
and no shroom-tea either:

Just plain water, put the mushrooms in, then let it steep for a couple of days, discard the mushrooms...

Would he be able to trip from that water?


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377704 - 11/18/04 06:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure you would get some psilocybin out, but the shrooms might rot, and not very much of the active chemical(s) would get out. I recommend boiling it to make shroom tea, it's a much better choice. Only difference between that and what you wanna do, is that you want to ferment it.


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Invisibleboeha
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Posts: 358
Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3377730 - 11/18/04 06:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"ferment it" ? :|

And why is it that there wouldn't be many active chemicals extracted?
I mean: "water soluble" = you put shit in water; chemicals go from shit to water. (to put it plain and simple :smile: )
Does heat have something to do with the psilocybin being extracted from the mushrooms?

I always thought you just destroy the active chemicals by heating the mushrooms!!


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377733 - 11/18/04 06:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I said letting it sit in water would extract some of the active chemicals, but i think heat would be more efficient. I'm no expert or anything, just my 2 cents. I've made mushrooms tea many times and it works really great. There are several threads on making it around here, a search would do ya good.


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Invisibleboeha
explorer

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Posts: 358
Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3377739 - 11/18/04 06:48 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Already did that:

But here's my point:
The psilocybin is said to be water soluble; so why does everybody make tea? Why not just let the shrooms sit in some cold water ?

Because if you ask for my 2cents:
I really doubt that the heat would actually help the extraction of chemicals. I mean, if anything, heat is bad for the chemicals.
If it is water soluble, it should be extracted just as well in cold water, isn't it?

Well, don't know much about it either... :smile:
But I could only try! :wink:


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


Edited by boeha (11/18/04 06:49 AM)


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377754 - 11/18/04 06:56 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, heat expands things and cold condenses. I know it's not good to leave mushrooms out over a day for sure, and making a tea takes only 20-45 minutes. Definitely worth a try though, tell us how it goes man.


--------------------
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Invisibleboeha
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Posts: 358
Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3377770 - 11/18/04 07:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Aha, see where you getting at:
So what you're saying is: that when the mushrooms are heated (in tea) the internal structure tends to expand, hence the water can attract more molecules...

And leaving mushrooms in water for a day isn't good? (I'll make a note of that! :smile: ) Thanks.

But the advice is not for me; I always down those puppies with some orange juice, so i'm always certain of tripping. :wink: ( I don't really care about tea; I want the active material in my stomach)


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377775 - 11/18/04 07:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Cool man, i like eating them better too. That's pretty much what i was thinking, even if i didn't get it fully correct. Leaving mushrooms out for over a day can make them rot, but i don't know how them being soaked in water would effect that.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377792 - 11/18/04 07:15 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I suggest you just eat them then :thumbup: :wink:

cold water isn't the way to go here so keep that out of your mind. dmtelepath has good advice, listen to him


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377796 - 11/18/04 07:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The rate(how quickly a solute dissolves in a solvent) of solution can be increased by heating the solution. I don't know why, I would like to learn that. It could be a displacement of the equilibrium of the reaction.

Experiment:

Put a teabag in a glass with cold water and a teabag in a glass with boiling water... Watch and enjoy :smile:


Edited by Annom (11/18/04 07:20 AM)


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Offlinestefan
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: Annom]
    #3377807 - 11/18/04 07:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

you can also try it with sugar :thumbup:

"do it yourself experiments" are fun! :laugh:


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Invisibleboeha
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: Annom]
    #3377826 - 11/18/04 07:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ok; I'll give him some shroom tea advice :smile:

But I sure would like to know exactly why hot water makes the extraction more effective. :smile:


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: stefan]
    #3377828 - 11/18/04 07:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:smile:

Stirring the solution and grinding the solid solute do also increase the rate of solution. That's because 'fresh water' will touch the solute more often if you stir and grinding increases the surface area of the total solute.


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Invisibleboeha
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: Annom]
    #3377835 - 11/18/04 07:27 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So:
- hot water
- citric acid
- grinding the mushies
- stirring a lot
improve extraction... :smile:


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377837 - 11/18/04 07:28 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

boeha said:
Ok; I'll give him some shroom tea advice :smile:

But I sure would like to know exactly why hot water makes the extraction more effective. :smile:




Me too... I already dug up some old Chemistry books :smile:


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Invisibleboeha
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: Annom]
    #3377885 - 11/18/04 07:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Btw;

using the search-function:

Quote:

Seuss said:
> A question from me: does it matter if the water is 20c, it wont be tea but does the psilo extract?

Stir it often and let it soak for a long time and you will have no troubles. 





hmmm :wink:


--------------------
- turn on, tune in, drop out ...
- peace, love and understanding ...


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: Annom]
    #3377896 - 11/18/04 07:44 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The explanation

Increasing the collision frequency

Particles can only react when they collide. If you heat a substance, the particles move faster and so collide more frequently. That will speed up the rate of reaction.

That seems a fairly straightforward explanation until you look at the numbers!

It turns out that the frequency of two-particle collisions in gases is proportional to the square root of the kelvin temperature. If you increase the temperature from 293 K to 303 K (20?C to 30&degC), you will increase the collision frequency by a factor of:



That's an increase of 1.7% for a 10? rise. The rate of reaction will probably have doubled for that increase in temperature - in other words, an increase of about 100%. The effect of increasing collision frequency on the rate of the reaction is very minor. The important effect is quite different . . .

The key importance of activation energy

Collisions only result in a reaction if the particles collide with enough energy to get the reaction started. This minimum energy required is called the activation energy for the reaction.


Note: What follows assumes you have a reasonable idea about activation energy and its relationship with the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. This is covered on the introductory page about collision theory. ( http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/basicrates/introduction.html#top )

If you aren't confident about this, follow this link( http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/basicrates/introduction.html#top ), and use the BACK button on your browser to return to this page.

You can mark the position of activation energy on a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution to get a diagram like this:



Only those particles represented by the area to the right of the activation energy will react when they collide. The great majority don't have enough energy, and will simply bounce apart.

To speed up the reaction, you need to increase the number of the very energetic particles - those with energies equal to or greater than the activation energy. Increasing the temperature has exactly that effect - it changes the shape of the graph.

In the next diagram, the graph labelled T is at the original temperature. The graph labelled T+t is at a higher temperature.



If you now mark the position of the activation energy, you can see that although the curve hasn't moved very much overall, there has been such a large increase in the number of the very energetic particles that many more now collide with enough energy to react.



Remember that the area under a curve gives a count of the number of particles. On the last diagram, the area under the higher temperature curve to the right of the activation energy looks to have at least doubled - therefore at least doubling the rate of the reaction.

Summary

Increasing the temperature increases reaction rates because of the disproportionately large increase in the number of high energy collisions. It is only these collisions (possessing at least the activation energy for the reaction) which result in a reaction.


Edited by Annom (11/18/04 07:49 AM)


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: help needed about psilocybin extraction... [Re: boeha]
    #3377937 - 11/18/04 07:59 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

1) So far, sites (Erowid/Shroomery) have told me that dry mushrooms only contain Psilocybin . (and the psilocin is gone)




I'm not sure about that:



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