Auto-SummaryThis forum post discusses the concept of "poisons" and the subjective nature of their danger based on dosage. The key points include:
1. Poisons are substances causing harm at certain doses, not inherently bad or good.
2. Excessive water intake can be poisonous due to electrolyte imbalance, not just dilution.
3. Some substances, like wormwood, can have residual effects due to bioaccumulation, not just direct toxicity.
4. The phrase "everything is a poison" can be misleading if taken out of context, as it depends on the dosage.
5. The author argues against blanket statements about danger and emphasizes the importance of dosage and individual differences in toxicity.
The post aims to clarify the definition of "poison" and avoid misconceptions, encouraging a nuanced understanding of toxic substances. The author expresses frustration at the assumptions made in the discussion and advocates for a more precise, argumentative approach to the topic.
>>O.K. then everything is a poison? I realize that too much of anything is bad, however that does not mean that everything is bad.
Whoever said anything about being bad? Poisons don't imply good or bad. People do. There are many assumptions being made in this argument about poisons which is causing such a ruckus. But yes anything is a poison at the right dose.
>>Drinking excessive water is not what does it, it is flushing out all of your body's sodium and electrolytes.
That's only part of it, Brain swelling is what get syou first. If anyone has some genetic impervosity to overswelling of the brain, then yes dilution of the blood's electrolytes and pH will cause death. A poison doesn't have to be a substance that acts directly. Infact most substances don't act directly. They touch a receptor or cause a reaction of events that ultimately lead to death.
>>Somethings can be injested in normal amounts without experiencing toxic effects.
I never said it couldn't. I said the right dose, never once have i spoke about "normal" doses. But yes you are obviously correct in your statement.
>>Wormwood is known to have residual effects on your brain because the chemical actually builds up in your brain.
Any medical literature i've read does not speak about cumulation. Thujone is not lead or mercury. Thujone can be broken down, and it's toxic effects come from the actions on the brain, like dissociatives causing onley's lesions. If you have contradicting literature that states thujone has a cumulation effect in that it lingers in the body i'd be very much interested in seeing it as i haven't encountered this in the medical literature.
>>To make a blanket statement that everything is a poison and that's that is dangerous because it encourages people to look at all chemicals as being realitively equal in their degrees of danger.
I'll agree blanket statements are generally bad, but i included the modifier at the right dose. I certainly don't think that statement encourages people to look at substances as having equal degrees of danger, and infact i think we all know that substances do not have equal degrees of danger. Again this returns to the modifier at the right dose. The problem here is that people have implicit assumptions about poisons, again you've mentioned good or bad.
Poison: A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
P1: Water causes harm and/or death at 5L within one hour
P2: A poison is anything that causes injury, harm, or death by chemicals.
C: Water is a poison when ingested at 5L within one hour.
I'll stress time and time again poison is a very subjective word and there's all kinds of assumptions being thrown around here that is making this discussion rather unclear and showing the differences of opinions.
>>.To make a compairison, it would be like saying well when you take Datura it is a poison, but fuck it everything is a poison.
I think it would be absolutely stupid to say something like that. Again I think you're making an assumption (or a stupid decision) that i definitely am not making. Datura is a poison when you take too much of it, which is why we stress being careful with anti-cholinergics. Never should anyone say "but fuck it everything is a poison" because i stated everything is a poison at the right dose. That kind of attitude is absolutely crazy to me. You can take a little bit of atropine and be just fine, infact it's used as a medicine too.
>>I am not saying that wormwood and Datura are even in the same catagory, but I think that there is a similar element of "you need to be fucking carefull with this" that such ideas nullify.
My statement didn't nullify it for me or others i've talked to, they seemed to have understood what was meant by it, again modifer of at the right dose.
>>Furthermore I feel that seeing all psychoactive principals in such a light is a byproduct of scientific opinions not entirely based on fact. It is like mainstream science's drive to nullify any notion of "magic" towards existence; which is a reactionary drive spawned from 1000's of years of superstition. Something which seems to try to reduce the world to something dead and mechanical without seeing the inherit mystery of it all.
That's just your opinion, others will vehemently debate you on those points.
>>Our idea of seeing things which alter our minds as poison comes from our culture's fixiation with alcohol and distrust of altered states of conciousness.
Not me, and others, the idea of a poison presented in this thread comes from the definition of what a poison is. Here again there are underlying assumptions or presuppositions that need to be explained.
>>But I guess that's just my not so humble opinion. I am sorry for starting an argument, but I am not.
You're opinion is fine and deserved unto you. No need to be sorry for starting an argument, i'll again think you have some preconceived notions of what an argument is. Argumentation by a classical philosophical definition contains no malice/spite or hate. Argumentation is just a string of premises that lead to a conclusion. And as i've seen it here, we've all just been debating so thus we've been arguing (but not like a gf/bf argue or people who dislike eachother) i consider this far more intellectual and healthier than that. Again i'll fall back on the classical philosophical defnition of argument:
A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.
A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
no where do those definitions contain quarrel dispute or any negative connotations to them. My clarification of argument stems from your premise:
Quote:
Our idea of seeing things which alter our minds as poison comes from our culture's fixiation with alcohol and distrust of altered states of conciousness.
It seems you're also influenced by mainstream society that considers an argument a negative connotation. 
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