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OfflineRxwoman
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Registered: 10/28/00
Posts: 33
Loc: the great plains, USA.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: dung vs. compost
    #271859 - 03/15/01 04:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, to both of you!
I so appreciate detailed, knowledgable, accurate information. It is the reason I post questions here, and I must commend you both, and thank you for not leaving posts that waste my time, or just suggest that I, ".. just do a search.." ( like I didn't already think of that).
Mcmann, when you say 'pasture straw' are we speaking of the same stuff? It is not wheat, or oat straw, what I have is several LARGE round bales of pasture grasses, mostly brome, maybe some timothy, yellow clover, other grasses and probably a bit of several kinds of weeds. In other words, hay for feeding livestock.
I can get wheat straw, but I would have to buy it, and haul it home, where as the hay is baled up and sitting in my backyard. Is there any reason why the hay will not work just as well as wheat or oat straw? Also, I have a few head of livestock, ( a few sheep, a goat, and a llama) would the addition of manure make enough of a difference to bother with it? I appreciate your opinion, and experience.
Bluhoney, also thank you so very much for the detailed info. I did not find it boring at all, in fact if you, or McMann could recomend an informational site, I would love it. I did check out your friend's recipe that you posted. wow, that is alot of ingredients! I don't think I could find rice straw in my area, however ( plains state-corn, wheat, soybeans, milo, oats, sorry no rice). But thank you for the recipe, perhaps I could tweak on it some.
If you either have the time, or inclination, I'd love to correspond with either of you regarding this topic.
You may e-mail me at // Maytree.r-k.rules@hushmail.com//
Thank you so much, Rxwoman.



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InvisibleMcMan
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Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
Post deleted by users_request [Re: Rxwoman]
    #272432 - 03/15/01 04:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineRxwoman
member
Registered: 10/28/00
Posts: 33
Loc: the great plains, USA.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: McMan]
    #272514 - 03/15/01 05:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That's exactly what I wanted to know. I will continue to post my questions here. I imagine you're a very busy person ( as well as cautious) so I understand. However, consider the invitation an open one if you ever change your mind, or just want to shoot-the-shit. The same to Bluhoney as well.
Thank you so much, Rxwoman.



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InvisibleSoup
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Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: Rxwoman]
    #272593 - 03/15/01 08:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

With me, I haven't gotten good results with straw and Cubensis in a while. Trichoderma hits it very soon after colonizing and I usually don't even get a flush out of it. It used to work, but there is something funny going on because it won't stay contaminant free no matter what precautions I take, except with oyster mushies which eat anything.

So I use compost or dung. I'd imagine your livestock would provide adequate dung (though I've never used llama dung) for mushies to grow on. There are also a few good recipes floating around for compost which can be easily made in large or small amounts. Bluhoney's looks real good but I'm not that ambitious and just use cow manure, wheat straw, and blood meal. I use a vaporizer and a container made of polyurethane insulation to make small batches and it seems to work quite well but you could easily use just about anything outside.

I'd at least try straw or hay first though as it is much less labor intensive and gives reasonably good results. If you fail with hay, it may be because it contains too much nitrogen (alfalfa and sweet clovers, I think this is what you call yellow clover, are especially annoying in this respect). So watch the clover and don't let it get over 5-10% of the total mix to begin with. I normally use two-three quarts of rye or birseed per 10 gallons of bulk substrate I pasteurize which would be about 5-8 half pints if use those. If your hay has more that 5-10% clover and you can't do anything about it, you could try to counter the high nitrogen problem by doubling the spawn rate but if that doesn't do it, there is little that will. Compressing the straw will also help quite a bit. I like ShroomGod's eggcrate paneling and cinder block idea (Eggcrate paneling is the suff that goes under flourescent light and has lots of little open squares) or you can just mash it down in a plastic bag or cardboard box. Little air holes all around the bag (if you use one) will prevent a boxed up side from becoming anaerobic. For large oyster blocks (18 x 38 x 8 inches compressed), I put everything in a bag and poke holes, set it in a tupperware storage container lined with eggcrate or something else to keep it off the bottom and allow air exchange, then mash it down with eggcrate and a cinder block.

If you want more info on my (or rather Bob Harris's) method of composting, just ask, and I'll dig up some old posts where I've talked about it.

I definately think compost is the best in colonization times and fruiting ability, and I've had slightly better yields with dung than with straw (though it only worked a handful of times with Cubensis so I can't make the most accurate assumption) and they are both better than grains alone. Don't be scared away from straw by this, the differences between compost and dung or straw are not large enough that they should sway someone one way or the other and if I could get straw to work again, then I would use it just for the labor saving part of it.

Sorry this was so long, I wanted to make sure I covered everything. Good luck.


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OfflineRxwoman
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Registered: 10/28/00
Posts: 33
Loc: the great plains, USA.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: Soup]
    #272636 - 03/15/01 09:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Soup,
don't apologize for the length! I'm a hopeless 'read-aholic' ( used to be a hopeless 'book-aholic', then I got the computer).
thanks so much for the information, I appreciate it greatly.
By coincidence I happen to have the Bob Harris book. I remember the compost instructions using a vaporizer.
Too bad his book is so old, though. The information is a good 20 years old!
I'm hoping I can dig up some old, rotted 'compost' out of the animal shed. Hopefully I can find some that has sat and rotted for a very long time, and will be good enough.
thank you very much, Rxwoman.



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InvisibleMcMan
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Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
Post deleted by users_request [Re: Soup]
    #272642 - 03/15/01 09:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibleslither
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Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 365
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: McMan]
    #272653 - 03/15/01 09:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here's a non manure compost recipe that I am not the original author of, I have sever compost recipe's saved if anyone wants more just ask.

I found this in a book about mushroom growing

Vedder, P.J.C.,Moderne Champignonteelt, culemborg, The Netherlands, 1971

-------Till Method------------
A method of preparing a nutrient base for Agaricus bisporus without composting designed by a german researcher named Otto Till.

The recipe is as follows:

chopped wheat straw 120 kg
peat 50 kg
calcium carbonate 50 kg
cottonseed meal 15 kg
soybean meal 15 kg
lucernmeal 50 kg
water 700 kg

These (dry) materials are thoroughly homoginized and the moisture content is brought up to 70%. pH= 6.8
Iron barrels are filled with this mixture and are sterilised for 5 hours at 130oC.
When the barrels have cooled down they are spawned with sterile (grain) spawn.
Aeriation is provided by tubing that blows HEPA filtered air. [Because no mixing takes place] Mycelial growth takes more time than usual; 5 weeks. After this timespan the fully colonised mixture is mixed with 5% moistened and pasteurised cottonseed meal. Normal trays are filled in a layer of 11 cm. This is covered with a normal layer of non-sterile casing soil.


Yields were high, but no commercial farming takes place because of the high costs and the difficulty of the proces (sterile work.)

well since high costs are only relative, and we know our sterile techniques....


It's kind of a compost surrogate, or a fake-compost as you may like to call it. BUT......
Wouldn't it perhaps be possible to use this mixture to grow some of the difficult species?
Maybe some improvisations may be needed to obtain all ingredients, but something like it should be possible to make.





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InvisibleMcMan
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Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 661
Loc: USA
Post deleted by users_request [Re: slither]
    #272658 - 03/15/01 09:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibleslither
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Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 365
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: McMan]
    #272665 - 03/15/01 09:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here's another I didn't write, It was origionally posted here by Just another traveler, this would be made alot easier with a compost tumbler cause you could probably just put it all in at one time I would say. I took your advice mcman and got one.

Day - Treatment to Material and Ingredients to add.
============ ===============================================================

01 Monday - Wet down.* Wheat Straw one bale, or Stable straw with 10% horse
manure, ( 50 pounds.)
02 Tuesday - Let it sit:
03 Wednesday - Let it sit:
04 Thursday - Add - dried poultry waste and Urea.
1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounce Urea.
05 Friday - Let it sit:
06 Saturday - Flip pile and wet down.*
07 Sunday - Let it sit:
08 Monday - Flip pile and wet down.*
09 Tuesday - Let it sit:
10 Wednesday - Let it sit:
11 Thursday - Add - dried poultry waste and Urea.
1 Pound - Dried Poultry Waste & 1.2 ounce Urea.
12 Friday - Flip pile.
13 Saturday - Flip pile and wet down.* - Add 2 pounds - Cotton Seed Hulls.
14 Sunday - Let it sit:
15 Monday - Flip pile and wet down.*
(Note: Compost will naturally start to heat up to high
temperatures, this is good.)
16 Tuesday - Let it sit:
17 Wednesday - Add - 3lbs. Cotton Seed Meal, 2 lbs. Gypsum, 1 lbs. Rape Seed
Meal, 1 lbs. Peat Moss.
18 Thursday - Turn pile, water lightly.*
(From now on keep the pile in a more compact format to allow
heat to build up.)
19 Friday - Let it sit:
20 Saturday - Turn pile, water lightly.*
21 Sunday - Let it sit:
22 Monday - Turn pile, water lightly.*
23 Tuesday - Let it sit:
24 Wednesday - Turn pile, and fill containers.
Ready to Pasteurize at 142 degrees F. for 6 hours.
First stabilize at 132 F. for 3 hrs. , then raise to 142 F.
for 6 hrs.
Finish compost contains 65-70 percent water content.
Slowly let cool for 2 days. Slow clean air ventilation
required.
-----------------------

Notes:
Well made compost is blackish and has a lightly carmel type coating covering
the straw. Over composting will lower mushroom yields.

Compost is pasteurized to kill any existing undesirable fungi growing in the
compost. It can then be inoculated with mushroom spawn.

* Wet down just enough to moisten the material and not enough to cause water
run off. Run off washes away the added nutrients.

Note: Compost should be made on a solid surface to prevent the washing away of
added nutrients. (Concrete, asphalt, plastic, wood.)

The above formula was originally from a larger volume formula. This smaller
volume formula may require additional composting time.







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InvisibleSoup
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Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: slither]
    #273097 - 03/16/01 02:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

rxwoman,

Who cares how old it is? It produces an excellent compost. Time doesn't change that. I am skeptical of the need for a half dozen or a dozen different ingredients, usually with a number of regional or hard to find ones. I say, KISS. Nutrients are nutrients, a wider selection may be slightly better, but when you're dealing with such a great substrate like compost, who cares as long as it's correctly made? I'm not saying that these recipes are bad, they look great. Just I personally would have a lot of trouble finding them not to mention spending a good deal.



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OfflineRxwoman
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Registered: 10/28/00
Posts: 33
Loc: the great plains, USA.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: Soup]
    #273257 - 03/16/01 06:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hi Soup,
Yes you are right regarding the compost. I guess I did not come across very clearly. when I said the book was twenty years old, I was really refering to the information regarding cultivation in general. I meant that the book was written a long time before spore syringes, and the PF type technique jars, etc. and that it concentates on the spore print and agar method of innoculation. I know when I first read that book at about 1984, I was overwhelmed with the directions and all the need for sterility. I thought brain surgery would have to be simpler. Anyway that's kind of what I was thinking about when I mentioned the age of the book, I guess I was not very clear. Again, thanks so much for the help. Rxwoman.



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InvisibleSoup
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Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: dung vs. compost [Re: Rxwoman]
    #273988 - 03/18/01 01:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I agree then though I basically only use prints and plates for my cultures. The spore syringe is great for the mail and half pint jars but it causes more problems then it is worth when you are using quarts and grain. Add in peroxide to that book and you have the perfect cultivation techniques, for me at least.



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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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