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Anyone know how to extract from mycelium?
    #26324747 -

So Paul Stamets went on the Joe Rogan podcast again and said that they now know that the mycelium contains way more of the chemicals than the actual fruit bodies do.

So he said his company switched over to making their products using a method of extracting the mycelium using rice. I've never used rice for my grain jars, but I'm assuming it's easy. He also mentions that you can't use hot water to extract it because it badly hurts the power of the chemicals.

Anyone have any clue on what the method would be to extract from a colonized rice jar of lion's mane, turkey tail, shiitake, etc??????

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: light4x]
    #26324762 -

Sounds like he’s just making an excuse to justify his selling of inferior supplements.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: ChemicalSpark]
    #26324909 -

Many cultivate liquid cultures.(really don't know if medicinal properties are present) Seems to me grains would dilute any advantage. :shrug:


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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: Quadman]
    #26325783 -

He's not lying, he's just being a bit disingenuous. There are a papers that suggest that certain novel compounds from certain mushrooms (in my reading, mainly hericium), are only present in the mycelium, and the fruiting body is absent of these novel compounds. So by only extracting the polysaccharide and terpenes from the fruiting body you are missing the other compounds (mainly novel triterpenes if I recall correctly) contained in the mycelium which could have potential health benefits. Also how it's extracted and how it's cultivated (liquid culture vs grain culture for example) does apparently have an affect to the quality and quantity of these compounds.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26326429 -

You are the first person that has any clue about this. I would love to still know how he does it. I would like to attempt it. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: light4x]
    #26326625 -

Hey. I've been thinking about making some medicinal extracts using mycelium too  while I wait patiently for my reishi grow bags to fruit (they take forever!) I read the section on making your own mushroom medicine in Peter McCoy's book Radical Mycology yesterday and he actually makes it seem pretty easy. Apparently all you have to do is colonize some brown rice grain spawn and then allow it to dry in a dehydrator, then grind it to a powder and encapsulate. Peter also talks about growing liquid culture jars of mycelium and just straining it out and drying in a dehydrator before putting it into capsules or using in baking.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: light4x]
    #26326628 -

IIRC he uses Whole Brown Rice. Lets it colonize and then fruit invitro. From there its cooked, dried and ground to powder. He calls its "Full Spectrum" since it includes myceliated rice, fruit bodies,  and metabolites.

Might be legit. Might be BS. I dont know.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #26326639 -

Do you know if he is using jars or bags when allowing the brown rice grain spawn to fruit in vitro? Also, what do you mean by "cooking," how and why would you do that? Could I just toss the grain spawn in my oven at home? Thanks.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: AZMycoremediation]
    #26326769 -

Pretty much everything Ive seen him do is in bags. Most myc should be cooked prior to consumption, otherwise you'll be fighting with digestibility and available nutrition. I dont know what process he is using. Baking it in the oven might work, Ive never done it.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #26326847 -

"Beta-glucans, which are a polysaccharide, are the most well researched medically active compound in mushrooms. For this reason, we specifically measure beta-glucan levels on our products. We do not believe in using polysaccharides as a measure of quality as it can be easily doctored using starch. Starch is an alpha-glucan, which is also a polysaccharide.

As an example, mycelium on grain products have been shown to have high levels of starch, which allows them to tout high polysaccharide numbers when in reality they have very low amounts of beta-glucans as the bulk of these polysaccharides are made up of starch. The starch comes from the grain that ends up in the final product.

Read our full article on why polysaccharides are a poor measurement of quality."


"Why Polysaccharides are a Poor Measurement of Mushroom Quality

Polysaccharides are one of the key active components in medicinal mushrooms and they are commonly listed on many medicinal mushroom products. In fact, many companies boast about high polysaccharide numbers. However, if we look deeper it becomes clear that polysaccharide analysis may be hiding significant product flaws.

Are high polysaccharides really a measure of quality?


Actually polysaccharides include more than just compounds found in mushrooms which means many mushroom products are fooling you with their polysaccharide numbers.

But first…
What are Polysaccharides?


Polysaccharides are long chain carbohydrates that are made up of various monosaccharides connected by glycosidic bonds. These molecules can range from the very simple to the more complex carbohydrate molecules.

Some examples of polysaccharides would be chitin and beta-glucans, which make up the cell walls of fungi. Cellulose, which is what plant cell walls are made up of are also polysaccharides. So are sugars like glucose and fructose.

Polysaccharides are considered to be one of the most commonly mentioned active compounds in plants and fungi. Specific types of mushrooms like reishi (Ganoderma lucidum), turkey tail (Trametes versicolor) and Maitake (Grifola frondosa) possess high levels of polysaccharides.

Polysaccharides in Fungi – Beta-glucans

Now that we’ve defined what polysaccharides are, we will look specifically at the polysaccharides you find in fungi. Fungi will contain small amounts of glycogen, but the primary polysaccharides are beta-D-glucans. Beta-glucans come in various forms, but the main one in fungi have what is known as 1-3,1-6 branching also referred to as (1-3)(1-6)beta-d-glucans. These are specific to fungi and yeast. Oats also contain beta-glucans, but they have a different branching structure, which are (1-4)beta-d-glucans.

This is important because the bulk of the medicinal mushroom research is based on the effects of these beta-glucans.

If the important compounds are beta-glucans, why are companies still measuring polysaccharides?

Polysaccharide Fillers – Alpha-glucans

Another group of polysaccharides are alpha-glucans. These are compounds like glycogen, dextran, pullulan and starch. What we’ve discovered is that the polysaccharides in many so-called mushroom products are made up of alpha-glucans and not beta-glucans.

Where Polysaccharide Testing Falls Short

McCleary, B. V., & Draga, A. (2016). Measurement of Beta-Glucan in mushrooms and mycelial products. Journal of AOAC International, 99(2), 364–373. http://doi.org/10.5740/jaoacint.15-0289

If you look at the table above, you will see an alpha-glucan and beta-glucan breakdown of various medicinal mushroom products. Take note of specific mushroom products like sample #5, which is Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum). This particular sample tests high in alpha-glucans and very low in beta-glucans. Another prime example would be sample #12, which is Chaga (Inonotus obliquus). It expresses high amounts of alpha-glucans and little if any beta-glucans. Same applies for sample #8, Cordyceps sp. (ascomycete), which is dominated by high alpha glucans and small amounts of beta-glucans. The Nammex report also showed similar results.

On paper these products can tout high polysaccharide amounts (alpha-glucans + beta-glucans) but in reality the majority of those polysaccharides come from alpha-glucans in the form of starches and fillers. Those alpha-glucans provide no medicinal benefit.

This concept is extremely important to understand when it comes to medicinal mushroom products. It is quite concerning because many products on the market tout polysaccharide numbers yet fail to mention any beta-glucan numbers.

The Importance of Beta-glucan Testing

As the beta-glucans are the important polysaccharide in these fungi, it is vital that beta-glucan testing be done instead of polysaccharide testing to properly qualify medicinal mushroom products. The Megazyme method, developed by Dr. Barry McCleary at Megazyme International, has been used by the USDA and other peer-reviewed research papers to precisely measure the beta-glucan and alpha-glucan content in mushrooms. It can test all types of basidiomycete products like mushroom powders, mushroom extracts and mycelium powders. It detects soluble and insoluble (1-3)(1-6)beta-D-glucans and even quantifies the alpha-glucans, which are starches, so we can see if products contain fillers like grain.

High Polysaccharides ≠ Good Quality

A common trend you see in the medicinal mushroom industry are various brands claiming that their medicinal mushrooms products contain high amounts of polysaccharides. This looks and sounds great on paper but this can be very misleading considering that polysaccharides can also come from starches.

For example, products#2, 3, 8 and 12 in the table above are actually mycelium products that are grown on grain. They all can tout >60% polysaccharides but the polysaccharides are mainly coming from alpha-glucans in the form of grain starch and the products contain very little beta-glucans. Thus, the majority of your money is spent on alpha-glucans instead of beta-glucans, leaving you with a less potent medicinal mushroom product that is primarily grain.

This is why it’s imperative that you do your own research into exactly how the product is made and make sure to look for products that measure beta-glucans. Beware that products grown in North America are almost always mycelium grown on grain.

If you’re curious, for less than $5 you can perform an iodine starch test on your medicinal mushroom product to verify if it contains any starchy fillers.

Final Thoughts

It is extremely important to understand that there is a difference in polysaccharides and that measuring polysaccharides for medicinal mushroom products is meaningless. High polysaccharides is not an indicator of quality and could actually be an indicator of poor quality.

A medicinal mushroom product should quantify the beta-glucans so you know the important medicinal compounds that much of the research is based around are present. This will help you in making an honest decision when selecting the right mushroom product.

At Real Mushrooms, we use the Megazyme method to measure beta-glucans and starch on all our products to show the potency and to confirm that they contain no fillers or grains.

Have questions or comments? Ask us below.
Resources:

    Friedman, M. (2016). Mushroom Polysaccharides: Chemistry and Antiobesity, Antidiabetes, Anticancer, and Antibiotic Properties in Cells, Rodents, and Humans. Foods, 5(4), 80.
    Sari, M., Prange, A., Lelley, J. I., & Hambitzer, R. (2017). Screening of beta-glucan contents in commercially cultivated and wild growing mushrooms. Food Chemistry, 216, 45–51.
    McCleary, B. V., & Draga, A. (2016). Measurement of ß-Glucan in mushrooms and mycelial products. Journal of AOAC International, 99(2), 364–373.
    Biomolecules: Carbohydrates – Polysaccharides
    Chilton, Jeff, Nammex, 2015. Redefining Medicinal Mushrooms."

Source: https://www.realmushrooms.com/polysaccharides-mushrooms-poor-quality-measurement/

Edited by ChemicalSpark (11/17/19 02:37 PM)

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #26326850 -

I don't know much, only what I've read in academic papers on the subject. I've been meaning to look through these papers that show positive results and try to figure out how they do the extraction. From my memory it varies quiet a bit, for example a paper which showed positive results in women with post-partum depression simply used the dehydrated ground fruiting bodies, formed into a pill with fat if I recall correctly. Others can be much more complicated, hot water extracts, alcohol extracts, ethyl acetate and can go through cleaning and purification of the extract.

This study mentions the how different cultivation techniques can have an effect on the compounds.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281146648_Hericium_erinaceus_an_amazing_medicinal_mushroom
DOI: 10.1007/s11557-015-1105-4
"Submerged cultivation is the most promising alternative for high yields of mycelial biomass and erinacines, but not hericenones, which can so far only be obtained from the basidiomes."

This one mentions that hericenones, and erinacines are found in different parts of the mushroom.
https://doi.org/10.1080/21501201003735556
"It is interesting that hericenones have been only reported in the fruiting bodies of H. erinaceus and erinacines only in the mycelia."

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: ChemicalSpark] * 1
    #26326886 -

Very good to read, thank you.

I recall looking into this last year, I was trying to figure out the $-value of some of these medicinal compounds. The conclusion I reached was that polysaccharides and glucans can be vague and misleading.

The supplements that Stamets sells doesn't specify the concentration of active compounds, eg. ganodermic acid. Further more, the "PROPRIETARY BLEND" being sold includes both mycelial extract and fruitbody extract. It might as well be 90% mycelium water and 10% fruitbody.


Ganodermic Acid appears to be a very important compound for which exists reliable cancer studies. If I can recall correctly it effectively reduced tumor growth in mice susceptible to cancers. The cost of research chemicals interests me, I work with some expensive compounds..

Gandodermic Acid, 5mg for $300......This must be the good stuff!
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/substance/ganodericacida516678190762211?lang=en®ion=US


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A well deserved burial yields love from beyond the grave!

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: DJ_avocado]
    #26327360 -

Great info in all those replies. Thanks.

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Re: Anyone know how to extract from mycelium? [Re: light4x]
    #26332174 -

Just throwing this out there.... you can also just eat the mycelium without extracting, drying or grinding.  This thread is old, but a few of us around here tried this out and it was a pretty awesome idea, I enjoyed it a lot.  I still make this now and then.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17486088/fpart/1/vc/1


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