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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Tormato]
    #26127524 -

I'm not trying to argue with you though. I love your posts man. I sat staring at your picture of the baby being thrown in space the other day. That is a trip for sure.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26128645 -

Guys,

Based upon your advice, today I gently massaged the mycelium and broke up the clumps.  I shook the bags to evenly distribute the mycelium and then I dropped them from 6" several times to compact the rye.  I gently reformed the mass and ensured that there is air flow to the filters.

Despite intellectually knowing that the procedure was safe and beneficial, it was an emotionally traumatizing experience!      PSSD?    Post Shaking Stress Disorder?  I needed a couple of bong rips to calm my fearful frenzy.

I await signs of renewed life.


Thanks again,

Tom

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26128883 -

:lmafo:

I have been there and felt that, lolol. I guarantee you that you will be well pleased in a few days with what you see, unless you do something really, really stupid. I know it looks like you have destroyed it, but you did not. In four days you will see the entire bag growing mycelium in every crack and crevice.

Just stay by the bong and forget about it for a couple days, lol.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26132753 -

Hey Tom,

How is it looking? I shook mine the same day you did. It will be three full days at about midnight. I am starting to see small pieces of myc everywhere. I hope yours is coming along.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26135390 -

Hi Spiritual,

It’s been 5 days since I shook the bags.  Due to being nearly paralyzed with fear, I was overly gentle with bag #1 and probably didn’t mix it as well as I should have.  Sides: 75% colonization.  Bottom:  50% colonization.  Top: 50% colonization, with some obvious clumps.

I mixed bag #2 more thoroughly.  Sides: 90% colonization.  Bottom:  50% colonization.  Top: 75% colonization. 

The bags are definitely generating their own heat.

I’ve attached a photo.

Despite my fear, shaking is definitely the best approach.  I’m delighted and relieved with the results. Thanks for the advice and reassurance.

It’s been warmer lately and I no longer use the heating pad.  I’ve dispensed with the thermometer taped to the outside of the bag.  I’m watching the ambient temperature and assuming that the inside temperature of the bags is up to 5 degrees warmer.

I discovered that by closing the heater vent, the window and the door to the bag room and just letting the sun shine in, I can create a green house.  During the day, the room temperature is 75-76.  If the room begins to get hotter, I simply open the door.  Overnight, the room temperature 71-72.

After the bags appear to be 100% colonized on the outside, how many additional days should I give them to allow the insides to completely colonize?    How will I know when the insides are colonized?  Is it possible to give them too much time, resulting in negative consequences?

I’m grateful for your and everyone’s invaluable assistance. Keep me posted on your progress. 

Thanks!

Tom


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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26135729 -

With bags of grain, you want to spawn to bulk as soon as they are complete. They are not like jars of brown rice flower, where it is recommended to let it consolidate for at least a week after it appears fully colonized. I have read that you can wait up to several months with fully colonized grains, but you would want to keep them in a cool temperature of around 55 to 65 degrees to hold off premature pinning and to keep bacteria and contams at bay. I am not sure how good that advice is, and I have never tried it. I have just read it in multiple places.

As soon as the entire bag is white, it is finished inside and out. If you take some photos a few times a day, you will be able to tell when it stops making "progress."  At that point, it should be safe from contams, but I like to spawn to bulk in a still air, clean environment. It is probably unnecessary but it makes me feel better, lol. I simply turn off the AC for about 20 minutes and thoroughly clean the area I will do the work in with bleach, Lysol, Ozium, etc. Just make sure you wait around ten minutes after spraying anything in the air, for it to settle. You don't want lysol or Ozium in your grow tub. I also run my air purifier in the room. I use a walk in closet so I can close it off and the air purifier can clean the air pretty quickly. All this is overkill mind you. I also wear gloves and clean the gloves thoroughly before mixing my spawn with my bulk substrate. Definitely thoroughly clean your tub out first, with some mild bleach water or alcohol and then dry it or let it dry. 

If you are growing cubes, you do not need a casing layer. All you need to do is mix the spawn up with your substrate as evenly as possible and then level it off with your hands. Don't tightly compact it. You can pat it lightly, while leveling it off, and that should not compact it too much. Some like to sprinkle a thin layer of substrate on top once they are done mixing, just to "protect" any exposed grains during colonization. The thinner the layer, the faster the time to full colonization of the tub. Many no longer do that. They just mix evenly, put the lid on, and leave it alone for a week or so. If you allow some FAE it will fully colonize faster (avg. 5-8 days). If you go with the old school method of only allowing GE, it will take a little longer (avg. 10-14 days). The GE method will preserve more moisture for later flushes and possibly make your shrooms a tad more potent, but I have not noticed a difference. Either way is fine, but definitely don't wrap it up in a garbage bag and cut off all air. You will suffocate them and be more prone to contams.

I spawn to bulk in what I call semi-fruiting conditions. That simply means that I don't tape up all my holes and neither do I put my poly or micro-tape as loose as I do after pins. I will stuff the bottom holes extremely tight, and I mean extremely. Then I will stuff the top holes about medium tight. Once I have a bunch of pins, I will loosen the bottom to medium and the top to loose and start monitoring my humidity and FEA to get a balance. I'm learning to get it pretty good most of the time. Once you learn your environment, you can pretty much set up your monotub and do very little.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Edited by Spiritualscience (08/14/19 02:52 PM)

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26135744 -

Here are a few fat ones off of a fourth flush. It has a bunch more catching up as we speak. I just picked these an hour ago. This is what you have to look forward to. This is also the perfect time to harvest them. The caps will start lightening up and the veil will begin to stretch. :grin:



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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Edited by Spiritualscience (08/14/19 05:55 PM)

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26136892 -

Hey Spiritual,

Congratulations on your fetching fourth flush fruit! 

Thanks for the tip about placing a fully colonized bag in a cool place to prevent pinning, while the other bag catches up.  I may have to do that since bag #1 is still lagging behind.

My clear monotub is 15” x 12” x 12”.  I spray painted the bottom and the lower 3” of the sides black to discourage bottom and side pinning.  There are two 1” holes on both sides of the tub.  They are 7” above the bottom of the tub and 4 inches above the blacked-out section.  A thermometer will be stuck to the inside wall of the tub. 

Since my tub doesn’t have bottom holes, my plan is to tightly place micropore tape over the holes during colonization to maintain humidity and allow GE. 

After the substrate is fully colonized, I will loosen the tape to allow FAE and turn on a light about 2’ above the tub to encourage vertical pinning and fruiting. 

Considering the design of my tub, does that sound like a reasonable plan?

During colonization, what temperature should I attempt to maintain inside the tub?

During pinning and fruiting, what temperature should I attempt to maintain inside the tub?


Thanks,

Tom

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26137448 -

No one concerns themselves with temperature inside the tub. Room temp is all that matters. The tubs like about the same room temps as the bags.

Your tub sounds unique in that it is not a traditional monotub with holes close to the surface and holes higher up. You almost have an "unmodified" tub-like scenario, which means you are most likely going to have to mist and fan at least a few times a day to maintain it. You will definitely need the poly extremely loose in the top holes or have one thin layer of micropore tape and then no tape a few days after pins begin to grow. You will most likely need to slightly crack the lid as well. I would not have a tub like that without checking it quite often and most likely giving it a quick fanning five or six times a day.

I would look up "unmodified monotub" and read how they maintain them. I am thinking of trying one soon myself, just for the heck of it.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26138073 -

That sounds like way too much work.  I'll just buy a 1" hole-cutter drill bit and drill two more holes on each side. 

I'll drill the holes right above the blacked-out section of my tub, positioning them near the surface of the substrate. There will be about a 3" space between the top and bottom holes.

During colonization, I'll tightly tape the bottom holes and tape the top holes with medium tightness. 

After pinning, medium tightness tape on the bottom holes and loose tape on the top holes.

Does this sound like an effective plan? Will it eliminate the need for misting and fanning?

Much thanks,

Tom

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26138324 -

I drilled two sets of 1" holes beneath the upper holes, positioning them just above the eventual surface of the substrate.  There is a 2.6" separation between the top and bottom holes.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26138674 -

Hey Tom,

That sounds much better :wink:

That SHOULD require much less maintenance once you get your tub "dialed in."
Let me explain:

Many people think that someone else's tek will or should work for them, but they fail to take into account the variances in environment. For example, a person who lives in a place with a relative humidity level of 20% will have much different results, with the same set up, than a person who lives in an environment with 60% humidity. A person whose house is 65 degrees will have much different results, with the same set up, than someone whose house is 80 degrees. Each person will have to figure out how their grows will respond to their environments. Of course, every time you change your materials (tub, amount of holes, substrate materials, etc.) you will have to adjust.

There is a popular tek here at shroomery on "dialing in your monotub." The guy keeps his bottom holes packed extremely tightly with poly throughout the grow. I have seen several others say that does not work for them. On my tubs, it does not work for me until I get to the third flush and am low on moisture inside the sub. My tubs are smaller than his and so are my holes. My environment may be different as well. My RH (relative humidity) hovers around 50 to 55, in my house. When the temps drop outside and my AC does not need to run, then the humidity rises in the house, and can get to 60 or a little higher. It effects how tightly I need to pack the holes. When my RH is high, I can pack them more loosely and the humidity level stays up in the tub. When my RH is lower, or I have fans in the room, or the AC is constantly running all day and air is hitting the tub, I have to pack them a little tighter to maintain a high RH. What you want is as much fresh air as possible while maintaining high humidity.

Also, each flush is different. No matter how long I dunk a substrate, it will simply not hold water like it does during the first flush. The more the mycelium grows in the substrate, the less room their is for it to hold water. Even after you dunk, the water will not last through later flushes. You will still need to mist a few times a day at least in later flushes. A properly dialed in monotub may not need any misting until after the first flush, because there is usually enough water in the substrate to produce constant evaporation during fruiting, without drying out. *Without evaporation going on you will get no shrooms.*   

Environmental factors to consider with each set up:

1.) Relative Humidity
2.) Temperature
3.) Amount of air movement in grow space.
4.) Lighting

The reason I am sharing this information is so that you will understand that it may not just be set and forget in the beginning. You will most likely have to make some adjustments.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26139991 -

Thanks so much for your ongoing tutelage and support.  I trust and I am implementing your advice.  But I’ve got to stop addressing you as Spiritual.  The experience of addressing you as “Spiritual”, rubs coarse sandpaper against my psyche on a number of levels.

You have kindly and generously facilitated an educational/supportive relationship with me.  In any productive relationship, regardless of its duration or depth, some degree of intimacy is required.  So please, oh please, tell me your first name.  Hell, a plausible, fake name will suffice.

Living in San Francisco, the RH in my greenhouse/office, with the window and door closed and the curtain open, is 52-55%.  I maintain an ambient temperature of about 76 degrees during the day. Overnight, the temperature hovers around 70 degrees.

I’ll read the “dialing in your monotub” thread.  I’m familiar with Pastywhite’s (sp?) set and forget techniques. 

I am completely perplexed by your comment, “dunk a substrate.”  That sounds like PF tek talk.  How can I possible dunk the 16 pound slab of colonized substrate that my tub will hopefully produce?  Please explain.

Continued thanks,

Tom

   


Edited by tomcards (08/21/19 09:29 AM)

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26140119 -

lol, you can call me whatever you want. JD will work :wink:

As for dunking a bulk substrate. Let me explain. First of all, the only people who don't dunk are those that have many tubs going at the same time and they only do two flushes. Small growers like myself, who want more than two flushes have to re-hydrate the sub to accomplish it. I am on my fifth flush right now on a tub. I did some research with the fourth last night and it was stout. Some say that after the second flush the rest are weak. That has not been my experience at all.

To start with, your substrate should have enough water in it to make it through one or two flushes, depending on your field capacity. I'm sure you know what field capacity is. It means how much water your chosen substrate material has in it when you initially mix it with your spawn. You should be able to grab a handful and squeeze it hard and get drops of water coming out and running down your fingers. You can find videos that show how it should be.

Dunking a bulk sub is fairly easy. I do mine in a bath tub, or my large laundry sink. You can do it outside with a garden hose as well. You can read about dunking monotubs on this site and elsewhere and find some good info. Here is what works for me.

1.) take tape off the bottom holes

2.) Spray the top of sub with sink sprayer, or garden hose sprayer, or strong shower stream. (This cleans it up, exposing some sub and hyphal knots underneath the top layer. It would probably work without doing this, but I always do it, going on the advice of many experienced growers. It must do something, because I get almost as much fruits on my third flush as I get on my first.)

3.) Once you get it cleaned up, then you fill it up with cold water from the tap until it is running out of the holes. (You want to keep the water fairly clean so many will run the water for a while and then leave the water barely streaming into the tub for the entire dunk. By doing so they are constantly adding fresh water to the tub and it keeps slowly overflowing through the open holes.)

4.) Weigh your sub down to hold it under the water. (A floating sub will not properly re-hydrate. It needs to be submerged. You just need to find something similar in size and shape to set on top of the sub and weigh it down to hold it under the water. I use another tub that is the same size. You can put something in it to make it heavy enough to hold the sub down. You can just put water in the other tub as well and that works.)

5.) Keep sub under water for several hours. (There is a wide array of opinions on how long to dunk a sub. Some say don't do it more than two hours. Some say to do it for 24 hours, lol. I've tried between one to seven hours and it did about the same thing. I like to do a minimum of two hours. One trick is to push the sub to the bottom and put enough pressure on it to see bubbles come up. That enables the sub to suck in water better, but you want to be very careful if you do it because you can break your sub in pieces. I have broken a few and it did not hurt them. I just pushed the few pieces together and they grew into each other again, somewhat.)   

6.) Dump water out of your monotub. (You can just tilt it and hold the sub with your hand to keep it from falling out. It the sub is fragile you can use a stiff piece of cardboard or something to hold it in while you dump the water out.)

7.) Put back into fruiting conditions. (I have to use tighter poly or more layers of micropore tape after the second flush. I also have to mist a few times a day. You will see fresh white growth all over the sub in a few days and usually it will start pinning again in about four days.)


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26140124 -

Your environment is nearly identical to mine, besides your cooler night times. That will slow your growth a little but should make them a little more potent. That is a good thing :wink:


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26141035 -

Ah, JD sounds much better.

Wow!  I was familiar with dunking PF cakes, but I'm ashamed to admit that I hadn't heard of dunking a substrate.  Thanks for this important information.

So, you recommend dunking after the 2nd flush?

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26141831 -

It is hard to recommend a dunk on any certain flush, because I can't see your sub or feel the weight of your tub. As it looses moisture it shrinks and gets lighter. Some get to three flushes without dunking, but usually they are heavily misting or doing a little bottom watering (pouring water into the bottom for a little while and then dumping it out, or just pouring around a half of cup in and seeing if the sub soaks it up in a few hours). I have even injected water into the sub in the middle of a flush, in a grid pattern, every few inches, with a sterile left over spore syringe. It seemed to help quite a bit.

Also, how you start your tub will effect how quickly the water is used up. If you spawn to bulk in fruiting conditions (allowing some FAE), like most do, then the water will be used up a little quicker, but you will be less prone to get mold and your substrate will colonize quite a bit faster. That is how I do it.

Some dunk after their first flush with good results. I can usually make it through the second, but I mist quite a bit during the second and sometimes end up needing to bottom water or inject water.


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26145753 -

Thanks again JD.  It's seems that a bit of experimentation will be in order.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: tomcards]
    #26164218 -

Any updates Tom?


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Jesus said to the ones who believed Him, If ye continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: First time grow with spawn bags and bulk substrate. [Re: Spiritualscience]
    #26164302 -

:threadmonitor:


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Searching the Unknown

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