Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

PlanetSpores.ca
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Money * 2
    #26133719 -

The entire concept of money seems to me to be based on a foundational lack of trust. That is, there is a perception of zero capacity for trust between individuals. If this trust could exist, there would be no such thing as money.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic, or is this really the core of what is happening? If humans were basically trustworthy, they could be relied upon not to hoard goods and services that, if allotted fairly between members of the community, everyone would have enough of. This lends support to the notion that something like civilization could possibly work, even though human civilization at this point is a very long way from working.

Or is money an inevitability even among creatures who could be trusted to be fair and equitable on their own? I think this could be an interesting discussion.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26133762 -

Lol trust.  People cannot be trusted.  Authority cannot be trusted.  It's kinda a truce.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #26133872 -

...DQ, I think its more complicated, once past the hunter gatherer stage.
...When one individual has a whole herd of sheep, goats, or cattle etc., and loans some, to someone else who gets the milk while doing the pasturing and herding, but later the loaner needs them back for another transaction, they must be kept track of. So it is society becoming more complex that seems to give rise, to first numbers, then writing, ....
and somewhere in the process of dealing with further abstractions, money becomes part of the process.
....Money and more precise divisions of time, and then arithmetic are all further abstractions. I don't think money can be singled out as 'the root of all evil'.
.... I suspect, that larger populations, lead to less and less trust, as per Dunbar's Number. And that, that is the cause of many of the ills of civilization.

"It is also the only writing system which can be traced to its earliest prehistoric origin. This antecedent of the cuneiform script was a system of counting and recording goods with clay tokens."
https://sites.utexas.edu/dsb/tokens/the-evolution-of-writing/
"The direct antecedent of the Mesopotamian script was a recording device consisting of clay tokens of multiple shapes (Schmandt-Besserat 1996). The artifacts, mostly of geometric forms such as cones, spheres, disks, cylinders and ovoids, are recovered in archaeological sites dating 8000–3000 BC (Fig. 1). The tokens, used as counters to keep track of goods, were the earliest code—a system of signs for transmitting information."

Edited by laughingdog (08/13/19 02:14 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26133873 -

personally I cannot remember every transaction from yesterday, let alone who owes whom what or why from last week or last month.

memory is more fallible than money, but both are subject to error, it is easy to lose one's way.

I used to dream of finding hundreds of quarters in the grass at the school yard.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26133884 -

Here they used to have a day where they'd throw a bunch of change in the pool.  I was a great swimmer and usually got quite a bit of change.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26133886 -

Truth is money is a bitch if you have it and if you don't have it.  Not having money is an obvious bitch.  Yet having money it comes down how to get the most out of life with that money.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26133905 -

Mmmmm.. I'm not sure I agree with the postulation that it's much, or anything at all, to do with a lack of trust. Like LD says; I think it's foundation is a record keeping system which has become overly complex due to the sheer numbers of us now in existence.

I can't stand thinking about the stuff myself. It's too fucking abstract what they do with it these days.

I don't do well with abstracts.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26133907 -

Pretty close to what my mom used to say:
If you don't have it -- its a problem,
if you do have, some [ ie. some excess], its an embarrassment.

I suppose a Taoist would say:
if you do have, some excess, it invites 1st jealousy, & then thieves.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26133918 -

This lady, Denise Schmandt-Besserat, figured out the numbers, writing, & art, progression.

When Writing Met Art: From Symbol to Story Hardcover – February 1, 2007
by Denise Schmandt-Besserat  (Author)

from Amazon:

“Denise Schmandt-Besserat opened a major new chapter in the history of literacy when she demonstrated that the cuneiform script invented in the ancient Near East in the late fourth millennium BC—the world's oldest known system of writing—derived from an archaic counting device. Her discovery, which she published in Before Writing: From Counting to Cuneiformand How Writing Came About, was widely reported in professional journals and the popular press. In 1999, American Scientist chose How Writing Came About as one of the "100 or so Books that shaped a Century of Science."
In When Writing Met Art, Schmandt-Besserat expands her history of writing into the visual realm of communication. Using examples of ancient Near Eastern writing and masterpieces of art, she shows that between 3500 and 3000 BC the conventions of writing—everything from its linear organization to its semantic use of the form, size, order, and placement of signs—spread to the making of art, resulting in artworks that presented complex visual narratives in place of the repetitive motifs found on preliterate art objects. Schmandt-Besserat then demonstrates art's reciprocal impact on the development of writing. She shows how, beginning in 2700-2600 BC, the inclusion of inscriptions on funerary and votive art objects emancipated writing from its original accounting function. To fulfill its new role, writing evolved to replicate speech; this in turn made it possible to compile, organize, and synthesize unlimited amounts of information; and to preserve and disseminate information across time and space.
Schmandt-Besserat's pioneering investigation of the interface between writing and art documents a key turning point in human history, when two of our most fundamental information media reciprocally multiplied their capacities to communicate. When writing met art, literate civilization was born.”

some other books by Schmandt-Besserat

How Writing Came About
by Denise Schmandt-Besserat

Before Writing: Volume 1: From Counting to Cuneiform
by Denise Schmandt-Besserat and William W. Hallo | Dec 31, 1992

https://www.amazon.com/Denise-Schmandt-Besserat/e/B001IQULEU?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_fkmr0_1&qid=1565727516&sr=1-1-fkmr0

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26133921 -

Dunbar's Number is explained here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26133923 -

Who makes the money?


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: pineninja]
    #26134026 -

pineninja said:
Who makes the money?



That's sort of what I'm thinking. I appreciate laughingdog's and Jsb's points above -- it's insanely complex, and its existence could not have been otherwise after the onset of stratification. Otoh, pineninja has a point. Where does the value of money come from? It's all in our heads. It, in itself, is an agreed upon abstraction, which we use green tickets, with the market value of currency, to signify, as if by magic. So if suddenly someone waved a magic wand and made humans a lot smarter and a lot more compassionate, would we still need money? (I realize this is an academic question, but it interests me).


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26134041 -

No it's not in our heads.  It's in our computer programming as well.

Money used to mean something and be far mire stable.  Prescious metals minted.  I suppose anything has value and money is only as good as what it buys.

That is why a lot of money is wasted and a huge part of politics is deciding what to spend coin on.  Time is perhaps the greatest form of currency.  We have only so much, it can be given or stolen and rarely do people know exactly what they have or how to spend it.

Most of our ancestors had one shot at a dream, if lucky enough.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26134052 -

If you don't enjoy money try a rainbow gathering.  Cash is called "green energy" and it's frowned on at Gatherings.  People set up trade circles.  No cash but drums and jewelry or whatever, crystals and stones.  Stuff hippies like.

It'd be embarrassing to be rich at a gathering.  If you are ya better bring A LOT of weed.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26134084 -

DividedQuantum said:
Where does the value of money come from? It's all in our heads. It, in itself, is an agreed upon abstraction, which we use green tickets, with the market value of currency, to signify, as if by magic. So if suddenly someone waved a magic wand and made humans a lot smarter and a lot more compassionate, would we still need money? (I realize this is an academic question, but it interests me).


You should see what they do with it in a bank. It's insane. The software which is the subject of my expertise is essentially a money making system. Making the tiniest fractions and fragments off of huge deals, and essentially generating the shit out of thin fucking air.

It sickens me somewhat, I must say.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26134123 -

Greed and the will for power and control are the root and where that lack of trust stems from.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26134174 -

And so then, the hoarding of any kind of resource in order to maintain power, whether it be goats, land, or money.

I think the money is simply incidental here.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26134182 -

Money is a liquid asset for trading for hard assets.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26134243 -

DividedQuantum said:
... Where does the value of money come from? It's all in our heads. ....


...a related issue is what constitutes land ownership?
to the American Indians it was a crazy idea.

...Yet it defines nations and they go to war over it.

...But its not just people. Many animals mark territories with urine, and have serious fights over these territories. Not just big animals, also many birds. So we can't blame ideas of ownership on the supposed faults of humans, or on the faults of civilization. ...Even whole groups of females are subject to ownership, by the alpha males of many species. From horses to baboons, so ownership is a primate thing too.
...So I would think , that some functions of ownership are not "just in our heads", but have roots much deeper in our biology.
...As maintaining territory often relates to the ability to survive (eat) and to reproduce (leave offspring before dying), and so it is programed by evolution.
...Among primates, alliances are formed, as part of maintaining better social status, and not getting beat up as much, if you aren't the alpha male. Primates have politics too. So in the sense that: money is power, again it seems the roots are already to be found deep in our biological past.
...It seems to me that some might say: its not that human aggression is unexpected, but the 'miracle' is rather that sometimes we can overcome it.

Anyway...
...Of course the weird things that happen today, like electronic trading, the mortgage crisis, riots in Greece, the world bank or monetary fund, naked shorting of stocks, etc. are a whole other level of craziness.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26134265 -

I don't think people go to war over land so much as war for governance of land.  Even Native Americans went to war over hunting rights and other rights to land or holy places.

Lot's of empires had issues with the varied cultures under their rule and borders.  Some cultures would rebel and try to split away.  So it's still like that in ways today.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Does philosophy protect you?
( 1 2 all )		 Epigallo 2,494 24 07/27/07 06:45 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* spiritual mother fucken protection
( 1 2 all )		 Muppet 2,970 29 04/29/07 12:02 AM
by Muppet
* Bhutto: "I have faith that God will protect me." OrgoneConclusion 1,307 13 12/28/07 09:28 AM
by Icelander
* spiritual protection against your own stupidity
( 1 2 all )		 Muppet 2,898 31 04/20/07 04:40 AM
by trunksan
* How do you protect privacy in the astral? Jalruza 1,833 17 12/21/05 02:17 PM
by Vulture
* I hate Christians so much I don't know what to do
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )		 bhamlaxy 13,285 150 03/14/09 12:03 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Argument by Design Bullfrog1 1,684 10 12/09/07 07:38 PM
by Holly
* If our job was to build the "Kindgdom of Heaven" on Earth...
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 TameMe 4,233 64 12/08/05 12:37 PM
by EuG

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,082 topic views. 3 members, 48 guests and 24 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.