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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26134290 -

laughingdog said:
DividedQuantum said:
... Where does the value of money come from? It's all in our heads. ....


...a related issue is what constitutes land ownership?
to the American Indians it was a crazy idea.

...Yet it defines nations and they go to war over it.

...But its not just people. Many animals mark territories with urine, and have serious fights over these territories. Not just big animals, also many birds. So we can't blame ideas of ownership on the supposed faults of humans, or on the faults of civilization. ...Even whole groups of females are subject to ownership, by the alpha males of many species. From horses to baboons, so ownership is a primate thing too.
...So I would think , that some functions of ownership are not "just in our heads", but have roots much deeper in our biology.
...As maintaining territory often relates to the ability to survive (eat) and to reproduce (leave offspring before dying), and so it is programed by evolution.
...Among primates, alliances are formed, as part of maintaining better social status, and not getting beat up as much, if you aren't the alpha male. Primates have politics too. So in the sense that: money is power, again it seems the roots are already to be found deep in our biological past.
...It seems to me that some might say: its not that human aggression is unexpected, but the 'miracle' is rather that sometimes we can overcome it.

Anyway...
...Of course the weird things that happen today, like electronic trading, the mortgage crisis, riots in Greece, the world bank or monetary fund, naked shorting of stocks, etc. are a whole other level of craziness.



Some excellent points there. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26134295 -

Imagine all this on some sort of inter galactic level.  Talk about high stakes.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26134308 -

laughingdog said:
DividedQuantum said:
... Where does the value of money come from? It's all in our heads. ....


...a related issue is what constitutes land ownership?
to the American Indians it was a crazy idea.





that's not entirely true

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Re: Money [Re: Tulipslave]
    #26134338 -

Love is all in our minds as well.

Fact is we do not know what will be important after death.  Seems the entire meaning of life cannot be a daily assessment.  And end sum total and that would require death to have passed.  For death is the last of life.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26134526 -

Isn't money another form of resources? In ancient times, a goat herder with 50 head might be viewed as "rich", due to having plentiful resources. Wars have been fought for access to resources. Money buys resources . . . Nowadays people often view money as a source of security. People are usually either spenders or savers. People who save every penny and live frugally place a very high value on the sense of security money appears to provide. Spenders don't have that kind of relationship with money.

The "consumer confidence index" reveals something about the yearning for a sense of security in a world where there is none.

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Re: Money [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26134542 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
People who save every penny and live frugally place a very high value on the sense of security money appears to provide.


Eeesh. These kinda people really get my goat. I'm not sure if it's because I'm totally incapable of being one or that I just don't light tightwads, mind you...


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Money [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26134561 -

I find myself irritated at these type people also. Not totally sure why. Maybe because they seem so damn afraid. I want to smack 'em and remind them they might die any moment and their fat bank account couldn't save them.

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Re: Money [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #26134576 -

...As part of any money system, we have taxes, as money is always regulated by governments. As part of any government system, there is always inequality. The government usually has a standing army, police, & prisons. So money works as a way of keeping the poor, always poor; and the rich, getting richer. it is all explained in a movie called:
The Handbook of Human Ownership - A Manual for New Tax Farmers
by Stefan Molyneux, Published on Jun 13, 2011 on youtube
it is a unique & eye opening view, as you may have noticed already, the humor is very dark.
as it is an hour and a half movie, it requires a time commitment, so I won't post the youtube link here, but it is easy to find, with the info above.
the pdf is here
https://freedomainradio.com/free/

it provides in depth information compared to my abbreviated summary above. So I won't bother to elaborate it further.
It seems to be one of Stefan Molyneux's better pieces.

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26134870 -

DividedQuantum said:
The entire concept of money seems to me to be based on a foundational lack of trust.


An argument could be made that it is precisely the opposite.

The only reason money has any type of value is because of trust. Take the US dollar as an example. In the US, 327 million people seem to have randomly agreed that "dollars" are valuable. We have placed our trust in it. In fact, most of us have based our entire livlihood in this trust.  We all agree a dollar is a measure of value.

This even holds true on a global scale. Worldwide, the dollar is valuable.

Its difficult to name any single thing the world trusts in, and agrees upon. But for better or worse, we all agree money is valuable, and we trust it.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Money [Re: badchad]
    #26135215 -

badchad said:
DividedQuantum said:
The entire concept of money seems to me to be based on a foundational lack of trust.


An argument could be made that it is precisely the opposite.

The only reason money has any type of value is because of trust. Take the US dollar as an example. In the US, 327 million people seem to have randomly agreed that "dollars" are valuable. We have placed our trust in it. In fact, most of us have based our entire livlihood in this trust.  We all agree a dollar is a measure of value.

This even holds true on a global scale. Worldwide, the dollar is valuable.

Its difficult to name any single thing the world trusts in, and agrees upon. But for better or worse, we all agree money is valuable, and we trust it.



But you're using the word "trust" in a different way. Sure, we have to have trust in the system, and in the concept of money, for money to have value. But I am not saying the opposite of that. What I am saying is that if we could be more trustworthy beings, at the very least the food would be free. We could all go to the supermarket and get what we need, and not hoard goods. In society as we know it, if we unlocked the supermarkets and the food and basic goods were a fundamental right, there are those bad apples who would take more than they need, and ruin the whole program for everybody. If we could trust in our fellow humans not to be greedy, food and many other things could be free right now. That's where I see the variable of trust with respect to the trading of money. I hope that makes sense.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26135246 -

People would surely hoard goods.

You don't want to live in a world where there is no trust in your nations money.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Money [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26135399 -

Yeah, I said people would hoard goods. That's the point. The missing variable is trust. If we could trust each other, we could have free food.

I wasn't ever talking about trust in the concept of money. That's a strawman.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26135421 -

DividedQuantum said:
... If we could trust in our fellow humans not to be greedy, food and many other things could be free right now.


...I think that it would be folly to trust. There are folks that spend their whole lives doing very horrible things, probably millions of them. Weapons, torture, nerve gas, cigarettes, nukes, etc. don't come out of thin air -- they come from folks who dedicate their whole lives to doing harm. Nice guys, like those who do 'Doctors without boarders' are unfortunately the exception. To ignore this simple fact seems naive.

...Either reading Robert Sapolsky or watching him lecture on Youtube for free, will show the deep roots of Primate behavior, that reoccur in human behavior. I posted on these roots in many species in a previous post. Competition has been wired into many species, for millions of years, by evolution. To expect different from homo sapiens, is simply illogical.
...One sees it in vast numbers of children, from the get go. It takes the form of sibling rivalry, where many fight every day for years. And in the very young, it takes the form of actually biting.
....So its not caused by an outside influence, but comes from instincts within. In fact it takes years of wise and patient and good outside influences to modify these unpleasant aspects of children. And in this world unfortunately many children do not get the love they need to turn out all right.
...So the world is full of gangsters, greedy business men, greedy politicians, sadists, folks incapable of intimacy, folks filling psychiatrists offices. I imagine mental health statistics are awesome, in a negative way.
...Again to ignore all these facts seems naive.

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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26135508 -

Oh, no, I'm not saying that's not true, nor was I ever trying to imply it. The trust I'm talking about is totally hypothetical. My original post is an exercise only in academics. The implication here is that humans could never get civilization to really work, and that human nature is something of a concrete thing. It would take beings superior in intellect, emotion, compassion and fundamental nature for something like money to be abolished. I was merely wondering if trust was the primary variable in why we must have money. I'm not trying even to suggest that things could be otherwise. Like I said, it's an academic argument, and I am perfectly content to discuss such a thing.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26135670 -

some random thoughts on the matter.

Ok I get it, but I think, you aim to start with one hypothetical
however as you go on to say, one ends up with many hypotheticals.
So I think what you end up with is a sci-fi novel about an alternative reality,
& not any data at all, that could have any practical aspect.

"I was merely wondering if trust was the primary variable in why we must have money. "

...Well hunter gatherers had no doors, let alone locks, so certainly trust is much greater in communities who's populations are under Dunbar's number. And the bushmen shamed or made fun of anyone who might start to get a chip on their shoulder. The hippie communes of the '60s also did a lot of sharing and growing food together.
...But once we get to large numbers of people and valuable objects like big houses,  and technological gadgets, that depend on division of occupation because only specialists can fix and make them. We need a way to compensate those who do unpleasant and dangerous or highly skilled work for those they don't know (Dunbar's number).
.... Robert Sapolsky, who observed baboons for many years in Africa, says only a few hours a day are necessary for eating and finding food. Most of the rest of the time is spent making life miserable for each other. Chimpanzee males go on hunting parties and commit genocide on neighboring groups of Chimpanzees  if they can.
...Like soma in brave new world, the hippies consumed lots of mellow making medicine.
...It would be interesting to know more about the sociology of the Kibbutzim in Israel.

...So it seems to me, population size, technological complexity, primitive emotions & competitive instincts (seems the big apes & monkeys all have dominance hierarchies), are all powerful variables in addition to trust, or lack of trust affecting money and how it is used.
...And that neither money nor lack of trust explain, the degree to which homo sapiens are competitive and often quite unnecessarily very mean.

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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26135677 -

Given that humans often can't trust one another, (the divorce rate may also have relevance here?) money has a positive as well as a negative side.
If accounting is done accurately many arguments and fights may be avoided.

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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26135710 -

I appreciate your points very much, especially this one:

laughingdog said:
...And that neither money nor lack of trust explain, the degree to which homo sapiens are competitive and often quite unnecessarily very mean.


I suppose then, that my point was a little too hypothetical and academic. As you point out, money is more a manifestation of underlying factors than a fundamental factor in itself. And perhaps this is one of the reasons why there is simply not much trust between modern humans.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26135731 -

maybe what we call trust in say groups under Dunbar's number, is not exactly trust.
For example in a family, its not that you trust your Dad never to get mad,
but that you know him so well, that you can see the warning signs,
before he loses it, and leave the house ahead of time.

Like wise if everyone eats together anyone acting like a pig will be noticed.
And if anyone were to become over weight it would be seen by all.

From just these 2 examples I wonder if trust has been put on a pedestal it doesn't deserve? Perhaps social pressure and the ability to pick up on subtle social cues are also playing a part?

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Re: Money [Re: laughingdog]
    #26135818 -

I think trust exists between people, but I'm sure the reasons for it go far deeper than the personal, all the way to sociobiology I'm sure. Definitely.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Money [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26135838 -

People tend to trust others more than trusting being broke and relying on others.  I think mkney is a pretty good system.  I think the world that money created surely has faults.  Faults that existed much before money.


Some people will always hoard power.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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