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This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold * 1
    #25650215 -

I think this guy makes a very good case for legalizing illegal drugs, the implementation of legalization and what the benefits would be.  His solution is very clear and rational.  What's your opinion?




Quote:
Drugs|by Emily Goddard|Nov 30 2018, 6:21am

This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold


It's happening with cannabis. But how would a world of legal stimulants work?


Class A stimulants are, once again, having a moment. More people are taking cocaine and MDMA in Britain now than they have in a decade. Both substances are cited by the 2017/18 Crime Survey for England and Wales as the driver behind the 17 percent year-on-year growth in the use of Class As by adults of all ages, and the more than 35 percent increase in their use by 16 to 24-year-olds in the last six years.

Given that cocaine purity is the greatest it’s been for a decade and prices have stayed stable, its draw is hardly surprising, and it remains the most popular illegal stimulant. The surge in use has, however, been linked to rather more harmful things than just all-nighters, embarrassing chat and misplaced bravado. Cocaine-related hospital admissions and deaths are on the rise.

But what would happen if powder cocaine, crack, MDMA, crystal meth and speed were legalised? Would their use be safer?

Steve Rolles, senior policy analyst for the Transform Drug Policy Foundation, believes so. He's been working on the world's first book to provide common-sense guidelines on regulating stimulants (he previously wrote one about regulating cannabis that was used by the governments of Canada and Uruguay to inform their regulation policies). We had a chat to find out how things would work in reality.

VICE: Legalising cannabis is one thing, but legalising stimulants is another thing entirely, right?
Steve Rolles:
Different drugs are associated with different risks, and the whole idea of regulation is to manage and reduce risk, so the regulatory tools you'd deploy are going to vary. Within stimulants there's an enormous array of products and risks, so you'd have various models to regulate price, potency, packaging, vendors and marketing, but the principles and goals are the same.

Where would you be able to buy them?
I hesitate to generalise on that, because you wouldn’t sell cocaine and injectable amphetamines in the same way. At the most restrictive end of the scale – for example, methamphetamine and injectable stimulants – you’d have a prescription drug set-up, a bit like prescribed methadone. For cocaine and MDMA, you'd have something more like a pharmacy. It would be a retail model, but it'd be a strictly regulated one with a trained medical professional as the gatekeeper, who’d have to abide by a set of rules in terms of age controls, not selling to people who are intoxicated, and selling in rationed quantities so you couldn’t just buy a kilo of cocaine.

Cocaine and MDMA, and lower potency stimulants such as dexamphetamine, could also be available at licensed premises like pubs or coffee shops, where members buy things to consume on site. Lower potency stimulants would also be bought from licensed retailers, like an off-licence. For things like coca tea and caffeine-based energy drinks such as Red Bull, you don’t really need any controls; they could be sold in supermarkets, as some are now.

What about crack? Would that be legal? If not, wouldn’t people just make it anyway?
If cocaine powder is available, crack is effectively available anyway because you could make it yourself fairly quickly. But it’s something you’d want to discourage, so we wouldn’t suggest retailing it. The person selling the powder could give advice on harm minimisation and you certainly wouldn’t criminalise users either.

And crystal meth, legalise that?
Methamphetamine is not that different to regular amphetamines that have been used for decades on the party scene. The difference with methamphetamine is that it's longer lasting, more potent per milligram and easier to smoke. It’s been demonised in a way that doesn’t reflect its pharmacology. In terms of regulating, you wouldn’t sell injectable methamphetamine, but you might sell slow release, oral, pill-form preparations in a pharmacy. What you want to do is move people towards the safer preparations of drugs.

Will legal coke be a downer because everyone loves snorting it in the toilets? Will it remove the ritualistic use and attraction of these drugs?
I understand that for some people the score is quite a thrill. The culture would change if you got coke that looked more like a pharmaceutical drug, but that’s got to be a good thing because that’s exactly what it is. We can be romantic and nostalgic about the good old days when we used to buy crappy coke that was cut with Nesquik from some dodgy geezer, but really I don’t think anyone is going to shed too many tears for that loss.

Will legal speed mean the purity is upped and it’ll be cool again?
It could happen. With speed, you might be better off with a slow release oral product like a pill that would give you the buzz over a longer time. That does mean, though, that you don’t have the initial rush you get like when you take it in powder form.

Who’d profit from sales?
It’d move into the conventional domain of legal business. There’d be profits for producers, suppliers and retailers, as with any other outlet, and the government would profit from tax revenue. It’s worth pointing out that things like cocaine, methamphetamine and amphetamines are already legal drugs in the medical field. There’s no mystery about how those things are used in the clinical sphere, and the wider market would just be an extension of that.

What will happen to prices? Will it be cheaper to buy coke than it is now?
We’ve suggested the price of something like cocaine be at or near the current illegal market price. You don’t want to change the price dramatically or rapidly. If it halved, you might get a spike in levels of use, as people buy twice as much – or, if you whack the price up, people would not bother with the legal supply and stick with their existing dealers.

How would you knock out the underground economy and would it have any impact on crime?
People would progressively migrate from illegal supply to legal supply. We can reasonably aspire that 80 to 90 percent of the market would move into the legal domain, and at that point the illegal market would contract by that sort of amount. The illegal trade currently provides significant revenue for organised crime and is a driver of offending, extortion and corruption in the UK and around the world. Our policy decisions that we make here have negative ripples internationally, through West Africa, the Caribbean, Mexico, Colombia and Peru, where it's fuelled violence and instability for decades. If we took that away, we’d see a concurrent reduction in crime; we’d be disempowering a lot of often very unpleasant organised crime groups.

Deaths caused by cocaine and amphetamines are rising. Wouldn’t legalising just make things worse?
Legalisation would allow you to know what you’re taking because you’d have a regulated product that would say on the packaging how strong it is, what’s in it, clear health advice and dosage guidelines. We’ve had a long problem of drugs being cut with nasty things or being mis-sold, and now a problem with drugs being stronger than people expect. You might want a pill that has 100mg of MDMA in it; now, you get pills with 250mg or 300mg, and if you’re coming from a culture of double dropping weaker pills, you're getting into potentially high-risk territory where people start dying. At the moment, you can buy a packet of paracetamol in Poundland and it’s got more information on it than you get from a rack of coke bought on a street corner or in a dark sweaty club. Knowledge is power.

Death and exploitation are features of the cocaine supply chain. Is there any point in legal coke without fair trade coke?

Cocaine is a deeply unethical product because of the nature of its production: it’s environmentally destructive, fuels crime, conflict and instability while empowering organised criminals. However, to blame users for all those bad things is a distraction from the fact that it’s the policy makers who are ultimately responsible. We don’t have a choice to buy fair trade cocaine now, but we could if it was a legal product. You could have production with fair trade principles, organic certification; it’d be the same as fair trade bananas. But it has to be legal to do that. You can’t do it when Pablo Escobar et al are controlling the market.

Do you think that culturally we’re capable of managing the responsibility of these things when alcohol, which is legal, is already a problem?
We’ve got a responsibility to deal with reality, and the reality is that thousands of young people are using illegal stimulants now. It’s abundantly clear that the risks people face from drugs are hugely increased by illegal supply, and if regulation can reduce some of the risks and address them then that is the responsible course. Alcohol isn't a class A drug and it's been marketed directly to children through sponsorship of Premier League football. What we don’t want is to repeat that kind of stupidity. You make these things functionally available in a way that meets demand but doesn’t promote use. Then you redirect the money made into risk education and giving young people cool stuff to do so they’re not that interested in doing drugs in the first place.

Research is identifying the therapeutic benefits of some stimulants, especially MDMA, for treating conditions such as PTSD. Would legalisation make research easier?
A lot of stimulants are already legal medicines, but it’s difficult to do research with MDMA because it’s a schedule 1 drug and requires a Home Office licence. The research that is going on is promising for trauma therapy. If it was rescheduled and the stigma around it reduced, then certainly that would facilitate research and its potential be realised. I really hope the book will help support reform around stimulants, which is the next logical step in the public debate. It's going to be a harder one to have because the scaremongering and entrenched attitudes around stimulants are much more intense than even cannabis, but we have to start somewhere.

Thanks, Steve.

Help support Steve's book here.














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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #25650336 -

Milton Friedman describes it perfectly:



Carl sagan also describes it well if you look up his writing on the topic.

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: cbeveridge3] * 1
    #25650371 -

Well said, Milton.  :thumbup:













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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Learyfan]
    #25650423 -

I think the report is good but there is one thing I don't like.

He doesn't explain the benefits of for example why meth should be legal.Yes, MDMA for example as he stated can help with PTSD.But cocaine?Meth?Highly addictive things.Then when some 18 year old boy goes and buys some meth from a recreational shop and get's hooked his parents will start sueing the companies or the government for making it legal in the first place.

And what when someone dies from overdose from that coke (for example) which was bought in the store next street?People will get mad and will start blaming the government for allowing it.(This is all a scenario in my head, it is not neceserally the prediction of the future so don't get too hooked up on disaproving me)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing againts legalizing drugs.All of them.I'm all for it.But we will need a better reason for making coke and meth legal.


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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: AstralAurora]
    #25650730 -

"Dexamphetamine" is actually significantly more potent than both cocaine and MDMA


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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: AstralAurora] * 1
    #25650831 -

The thing about this is with legalization, the dose will be known. I'm someone takes over the stated overdose amount which would be required to state on the packaging, that's on them.

How come when people get addicted to alcohol and overdose, people aren't up in arms with the government and suing alcohol companies?

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: cbeveridge3]
    #25650881 -

Everything would have to be mixed and diluted or else someone could poison you at any time.

These drugs (like alcohol) are also bad for your body until you metabolize and piss them out.

Edited by Konyap (12/01/18 03:16 PM)

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Konyap]
    #25650961 -

How could someone poison me at anytime? That would be illegal and heavily punishable.

You can easily but enough pure nicotine in someone's food or drink to kill them, how come this isn't common? (50mg)

Compare that 50mg to 9600mg of cocaine or 200mg of meth.

Clearly if you want to poison someone with a drug, nicotine is the way to go

Edited by cbeveridge3 (12/01/18 04:13 PM)

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Konyap] * 1
    #25650970 -

To make drugs legal and then still keep the price the same is not a good idea. It being cheaper doesn't necissarily mean people will be doing more. I believe when the price is as high as it is now it makes addicts more likely to commit crimes to feed their habit. The government would have to tax it to cover the health problems it would cause some people. But it should be atleast 1/2 the current price.


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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Konyap]
    #25650981 -

Konyap said:
Everything would have to be mixed and diluted or else someone could poison you at any time.

These drugs (like alcohol) are also bad for your body until you metabolize and piss them out.



Drugs aren't bad for you only until you metabolize them. If you take too much meth for instance you can damage your brain. Cocaine can cause irreversible heart damage.  I had a friend that has some form of perminant tardive dyskinesia where he would roll his eye to the back of his head while talking. Even with alcohol you can be a heavy drinking and decide to give it up but by the time you do you have sorosis of the liver. So lots of drugs have lasting effects.


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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Crispy224]
    #25651152 -

that's not the point

i stated the obvious answer to an obvious problem
people spiking peoples drinks or food with stuff that will kill them, get them high, cause complications

I didn't ask how I asked why should this stuff be legal when it's just like alcohol toxic for your body. Cocaine could defitely kill you it's 15mg/per liter of blood
snorting 9 grams raw of cocaine would kill you 2 or 3 times once you digest it
I think you're thinking of caffiene which will kill you at 9 grams

Edited by Konyap (12/01/18 05:52 PM)

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Konyap]
    #25651629 -

Ok then why isn't nicotine spiking a problem? Please answer this, it only takes a little nicotine (50mg), much less than any drug we are discussing, to kill you, so why aren't people's drinks and food being spiked, and why is this not an issue? If you can't answer this your point is nullified. This drug is widely available to anyone, even those underage can probably order it online.

Anybody can stab me in the face and kill me anytime, so why is this not a problem?

Obviously people could spike peoples stuff with drugs with it being illegal, however it is thus harder to track who did it, if it was legal, store records would tell who had possession of it and would make it easier to prove who did it. Your point is pure shit, you will have to step up your propaganda game to convince me.

By the way, cocaine is 96 milligrams per kilogram of weight for OD, thus if you weigh 100kg, you need almost 10 grams to die. This is average, however, well over 1 gram is the minimum needed to die in those very sensitive. This is still insanely more than the minimum needed to OD on nicotine.

Edited by cbeveridge3 (12/01/18 11:25 PM)

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: cbeveridge3] * 1
    #25651659 -

Cocaine is one of the few drugs that can kill you in recreational doses.  It is literally a gamble with your heart every time you do it.

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: AstralAurora]
    #25651703 -

AstralAurora said:
I think the report is good but there is one thing I don't like.

He doesn't explain the benefits of for example why meth should be legal.Yes, MDMA for example as he stated can help with PTSD.But cocaine?Meth?Highly addictive things.Then when some 18 year old boy goes and buys some meth from a recreational shop and get's hooked his parents will start sueing the companies or the government for making it legal in the first place.

And what when someone dies from overdose from that coke (for example) which was bought in the store next street?People will get mad and will start blaming the government for allowing it.(This is all a scenario in my head, it is not neceserally the prediction of the future so don't get too hooked up on disaproving me)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing againts legalizing drugs.All of them.I'm all for it.But we will need a better reason for making coke and meth legal.



I feel like the organized crime argument is easily the most powerful argument for why drugs need to be legalized. The fact is, people who want drugs are going to buy them whether they are legal or illegal. Making drugs illegal has failed to stop drug use. Therefore, do we want to leave the distribution of these drugs up to the government so it can be subjected to regulations and can be prepared for users as safely as possible? Or... Do we want to leave the distribution of drugs to vicious crime gangs who cut the drugs with dangerous shit and are turning Central America and ghettos in the US into a warzone?

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Crispy224]
    #25651708 -

Crispy224 said:
To make drugs legal and then still keep the price the same is not a good idea. It being cheaper doesn't necissarily mean people will be doing more. I believe when the price is as high as it is now it makes addicts more likely to commit crimes to feed their habit. The government would have to tax it to cover the health problems it would cause some people. But it should be atleast 1/2 the current price.



I would say if a gram of street cocaine currently costs $60. Then it should be reduced to $35, then tax the shit out of it at 30%, thus increasing the price to $50 a gram. I have heard people who occasionally use cocaine say that they don't use it as much because of how expensive it is so it is deterring some people.

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: triphead9428]
    #25651721 -

anyone who thinks they're going to sell coke and heroin in a store again is beyound asinine, it's a drug. Not for you.
If you want to grow flowers and what not be my guest but I think the gov't should step in if it's more than a personal garden, that way if someone dies suddenly people will know who it's from

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: cbeveridge3]
    #25651789 -

cbeveridge3 said:
The thing about this is with legalization, the dose will be known. I'm someone takes over the stated overdose amount which would be required to state on the packaging, that's on them.

How come when people get addicted to alcohol and overdose, people aren't up in arms with the government and suing alcohol companies?



For a few reasons. One alcohol has been around so long, is so easy to make and is so much a part of the culture that people have learned to accept it.

Secondly, alcohol is rather difficult to overdose on. It's not something that's just likely to happen by accident, you have to drink an insane amount.

This is not true for cocaine or meth. With cocaine you can actually die from a heart attack after doing one line. It also produces a very strong compulsion to continue using causing people to go on binges, which again carries a risk of death. Same with meth, while an immediate heart attack is less likely than cocaine it also produces that binge behavior where people stay awake for long periods and can possibly suffer strokes and heart attacks. Often running out is the only thing that stops someone on a crack binge from continuing. If they could walk down the street and buy it legally, it might not be so good for them.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: triphead9428]
    #25651859 -

triphead9428 said:
Crispy224 said:
To make drugs legal and then still keep the price the same is not a good idea. It being cheaper doesn't necissarily mean people will be doing more. I believe when the price is as high as it is now it makes addicts more likely to commit crimes to feed their habit. The government would have to tax it to cover the health problems it would cause some people. But it should be atleast 1/2 the current price.



I would say if a gram of street cocaine currently costs $60. Then it should be reduced to $35, then tax the shit out of it at 30%, thus increasing the price to $50 a gram. I have heard people who occasionally use cocaine say that they don't use it as much because of how expensive it is so it is deterring some people.



Of course the prices deter people but they also cause people to commit crimes to pay for them.

Now what do you mean when you say "it should be reduced to $35"? The price isn't some arbitrary number, it's based off the production  and importation costs. Cocaine is cheap to produce and most of that $60 per gram comes from the fact that it's expensive to import to the USA illegally. I don't know what the price would be in a legal market, but it would depend on the legal production costs. What I'm saying is, shouldn't we let the market determine the price and then tax it accordingly if we want to artificially raise it?

Let's say the market determined the price to be around $20 per gram, but you set the price at $35 plus the %30 tax going to the government. Who would get to keep the extra $15 on the gram? The producers? The retailers? Why reward them with free money?


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Peyote Road] * 1
    #25651909 -

The main reason for legalizing drugs is mostly so that theres no adulteration ODs and the lack of quality control. The fact is, people (not just "criminals") use drugs, and they need to be safer

price it depending on cost of manufacture. It shouldnt be priced like say, cigarettes are. Always going up, taxes, etc etc. demand shouldnt play as much of a role as black market or in a dispensary


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye


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Re: This Is How Coke, Ecstasy and Meth Would Be Legally Sold [Re: Fractal420] * 1
    #25652789 -

You don't see anyone cutting vodka or wine with nasty chemicals... this would be the main benefit for street drugs if they get legalized.

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