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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Pantheism
    #2416276 - 03/10/04 07:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I've long considered myself a pantheist, but then something occurred to me: if the universe IS God, then why call it God? We already have a perfectly good word for it: universe.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416305 - 03/10/04 07:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I lean toward the view that consciousness is God, that's why an image can't do justice to it. And that as consciousness changes so too does the conditions that envelops it. It's a long slow process but what else is there to do


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2416321 - 03/10/04 07:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

When I tripped on 5g I began to feel like the universe itself had a consciousness, and that's how I came to be a pantheist(though I had been interested in the concept before that). But now I realize that even if the universe is conscious, that doesn't mean we should define it as God.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416376 - 03/10/04 08:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Some teachers tell me the elements of water, air, earth and fire have consciousness, and plants and ....Often I'm totaly out of my depth and retreat back into the comfy security of my bedroom and shut the doors on all the boogeymen.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2416412 - 03/10/04 08:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Some teachers tell me the elements of water, air, earth and fire have consciousness



Contrary to popular belief, those things are not elements. The ancient Greeks thought they were, but that was before we had the Periodic Table.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416436 - 03/10/04 08:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Really?

I learn something new everyday here- but the elements wont change.

Elementary my dear Watson.

So what is the correct terminology to use when describing the element which a shaman supposedly has an ally with ( earth, air, fire & water)


Edited by castaway (03/10/04 08:41 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2416466 - 03/10/04 08:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So what is the correct terminology to use when describing the element which a shaman supposedly has an ally with ( earth, air, fire & water)



They're using the term "element" in the same sense that science uses it. Shamanism pre-dates modern science, so probably those shamans also had a false belief that those were the four elements that comprised all matter. I think it'd be interesting if we found some modern shamans who claim to have an ally with Mercury or Zinc.


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2416528 - 03/10/04 09:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

without the universe you wouldnt exist, and without you the universe wouldnt exist. we are mere reflections of the universe (incuding consciousness, in which we realize your reality)and the universe of us. iwould say everything is one, but there is no two, so how could there be one. there just is


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416539 - 03/10/04 09:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Because there are no real pantheistic religions, pantheism remains more in the realm of philosophical theology than theology proper. Even a religion like Wicca, which is dualistic, recognizes that God and Goddess derive from an unspoken, yet implicit Union, or One. Among the more sophisticated Wiccans, a Transcendental Reality is recognized that is beyond Nature.

The People of the Book (Jews, Christians, Muslims) are Monotheistic, yet there are streams of PanENtheism within these faiths that recognize the Immanence of GOD, suffusing yet distinct from creation.

From the position of Jew, Christian or Muslim, GOD is ontologically prior to creation. If a Steady State theory of the universe was still fashionable, there might be more pantheistic thinking. A Big Bang theory suggests a Reality (GOD) which exists prior to any 'thing' or 'things.' Creation ex nihilo (out of nothing [read, no thing]) differs from an Emanation notion which Qabalists and Neoplatonists adhere to in 'some' measure whereby matter, mind and spirit are modifications of the Being of GOD. In this sense, those philosophies have been accused of being pantheistic, as was the paleontologist priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin in recent times.

Creation is in no way identical or an extension of GOD in any Monotheistic faith. If anything, GOD 'voided' a singularity of His Being (Tsimtsim in Qabalism), whence sprung the universe.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2416543 - 03/10/04 09:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

" So what is the correct terminology to use when describing the element which a shaman supposedly has an ally with ( earth, air, fire & water) "

In modern Magick, the elements Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Spirit, represent different aspects of the Divine, and thyself, the practictioner. They can be related to, and used in rituals to perform magickal rights.


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Invisiblemoeshroom
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416555 - 03/10/04 09:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

They're using the term "element" in the same sense that science uses it.




i don't think the ancient Greeks believed air to be an element of matter. the word "element" has several meanings, two of which are described in this thread. it's used my modern scientists to describe varieties of atoms, the smallest distinguishable element of matter, and by modern shamans sort to describe the natural elements earth, air, fire, and water.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Pantheism [Re: moeshroom]
    #2416598 - 03/10/04 09:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i don't think the ancient Greeks believed air to be an element of matter.



I've heard otherwise. I've heard that they believed all matter was composed of some combination of earth, air, fire, and water. Now we know that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, and that air is a combination of Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, etc.

Quote:

the smallest distinguishable element of matter, and by modern shamans sort to describe the natural elements earth, air, fire, and water.



What do you mean by natural elements? That sounds rather vague. Earth, air, fire, and water are the result of combinations of elements, rather than elements in themselves. I think modern shamans just call them elements because they've been called that for so long. Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any further.


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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2416685 - 03/10/04 10:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Pantheism is defined as universe and it's phenomenae but the universe and it's phenomenae could be an expression of God (as pantheism or whatever) rather than God itself.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2417645 - 03/11/04 03:04 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You are both right about "elements":

el?e?ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-mnt) n.

1. A fundamental, essential, or irreducible constituent of a composite entity.

2. elements The basic assumptions or principles of a subject.

3. Mathematics.
A member of a set.
A point, line, or plane.
A part of a geometric configuration, such as an angle in a triangle.
The generatrix of a geometric figure.
Any of the terms in the rectangular array of terms that constitute a matrix or determinant.

4. Chemistry & Physics. A substance composed of atoms having an identical number of protons in each nucleus. Elements cannot be reduced to simpler substances by normal chemical means.

5. One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded as a fundamental constituent of the universe.

6. Electricity. The resistance wire in an electrical appliance such as a heater or an oven.

7. elements The forces that constitute the weather, especially severe or inclement weather: outside paint that had been damaged by the elements.

8. An environment naturally suited to or associated with an individual: He is in his element when traveling. The business world is her element.

9. A distinct group within a larger community: the dissident element on campus.

10. A part of a military force, especially:
A ground unit in an air force comparable to a platoon.
A unit of an air force equal to two or three aircraft.

11. elements The bread and wine of the Eucharist.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2417833 - 03/11/04 04:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The Universe is a Green Dragon. Because the universe is a singularity (unless there are multi-verses, and then the set containing all of the multi-verses is a singularity), you cannot use words to logically describe it. Words compare things... this is big, because it is bigger than the average thing. This is cold because it is colder than most things, and so forth. So, one might say the Universe is a Green Dragon and it is as logically correct (or incorrect) as saying the universe is anything. Check out the book by the same title (the universe is a green dragon)


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OfflineDestruKtiKon
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Re: Pantheism [Re: Krishna]
    #2418146 - 03/11/04 06:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I call it "The Thing", it doesn't matter what you call it, its still gonna be there, and I don't think it really cares about our symbolic language.


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Re: Pantheism [Re: Frog]
    #2418159 - 03/11/04 06:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why operate with a dated representation of the world in form of elements in magic? I think it is because elements have a primordial and powerful meaning in relation to our collective unconscious. The images conjured up in our minds when contemplating such elements carries deep significance.

Fire; an element of action, ruin, destruction, warmth, passion...
Water; pure, adaptable, enduring, harmonious...
Air; subtle, intelectual, clear, etherical...
Earth; strong, firm, nurishing...

But there are also the element of fire in water when the sea is in wrath, or the element of water in air when the clouds gather, etc..

Life has to have a combination of all these elements (including the fitht, the spiritual ether).

The point is that such elemental thinking is very intuitive, and thus basic tools for magical/alchymical arts.


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There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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Re: Pantheism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2418237 - 03/11/04 07:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If by saying the universe you mean everything that was is and will be and taken on account all the possible different dimensions...infinity, everything then yes that is what pantheists believe.


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Re: Pantheism [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2418256 - 03/11/04 08:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The_Visionaire said:
Life has to have a combination of all these elements




The combination heat (fire), water, air & (?)earth produces the tropical storm. Does a storm have consciousness? Is life the experience of disturbance?


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Pantheism [Re: castaway]
    #2418278 - 03/11/04 08:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

>The combination heat (fire), water, air & (?)earth produces the tropical storm. Does a storm have consciousness? Is life the experience of disturbance?

You forgot the fifth element! But I do not think that the concept of elements is the best way to explore the deep meaning of what life IS. The strength of elemental thinking lies in the strong intuitive position it has in the human psyche and thus is a practical tool in performing magic.

What life really is, is a hard question.
When a star gather together in a cluster of hydrogen and helium and then finally explodes to make heavier elements, isn`t this a form of life and evolusion as well? Where does life really start? Chemical reactions?


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There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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