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Offlinepaintitblack
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newbie questions
    #2391598 - 03/01/04 04:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i've checked around on the internet and i really haven't found anything all that helpful so i was wondering if you guys had any tips for identifying Psilocybe cyanescens and pan subbs

if you could help thatd be greatly appreciated


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Offlineguri
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2391813 - 03/01/04 05:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

cyans are out of season,

but nonetheless check out

http://www.mushroomjohn.com/species.htm

hes got some info for ya


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2391829 - 03/01/04 05:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

PSILOCYBE CYANESCENS:
LATIN NAME(S)  Psilocybe cyanescens  Wakefield  Trans. Brit. Myc. Soc. 29: 141. 1946.
ENGLISH NAME(S)  wavy-capped Psilocybe, cyans, blue halos, blueing Psilocybe, potent Psilocybe
NOTES  fieldmarks include viscid peelable caramel-brown cap that fades as it dries, and often becomes wavy as it expands, bluing of flesh and stem, fleeting veil, and dark spores; common, found at least BC, WA, OR, also CA, United Kingdom (Scotland), Netherlands, (Guzman),  CHEMICAL REACTIONS KOH stains flesh and cap reddish-yellow or reddish-brown (Guzman)
CAP  2-4(5)cm, obtusely conic to conic-convex at first, soon broadly convex, then flat or with an uplifted, often wavy margin; hygrophanous, chestnut brown becoming caramel brown, then fading to dark yellowish brown or ochraceous on drying; smooth, viscid when moist from separable gelatinous cap skin, margin translucent-striate, (Stamets), (1)2-5(7.5)cm, subconic or convex to bellshaped, becoming irregularly expanded flat-convex or flat to depressed, sometimes subumbonate; bald, (Guzman), 1.5-4(5), soon convex to broadly convex, then flat or with uplifted often wavy margin; dark brown or reddish-brown becoming caramel-brown, then fading to tan, yellowish-brown, or paler, sometimes with blue or blue-green stains, especially near margin; viscid when moist, smooth, (Arora)
FLESH  nearly colored as cap and bruising bluish, (Stamets), "yellowish and pliant or fleshy in cap, whitish to orange-yellow and cartilaginous in stem mainly toward the base, easily staining blue when cut, (Guzman), thin; bruising blue or blue-green, (Arora)
GILLS  adnate to subdecurrent, close to somewhat distant, broad; cinnamon-brown becoming deep smoky-brown, edges whitish, (Stamets), adnate to sinuate, yellowish brown or orangish-brown to violaceous brown, sometimes somewhat mottled, with edges colored as faces or nearly whitish, (Guzman), typically adnate but sometimes seceding, fairly close; brown or cinnamon-brown becoming dark smoky-brown or sometimes bluish-stained, edges whitish, (Arora)
STEM  2-8cm x 0.2-0.5cm, equal or with an enlarged base, often curved, stiff but not pliant; whitish, but readily bruising bluish; silky, covered with fine fibrils, dry, often with long whitish rhizomorphs protruding about base of stem, (Stamets), (4)6-9(11)cm x (0.3)0.4-0.6(0.7)cm, equal, cylindric or somewhat bulbous, straight or sometimes irregularly flexuous (bent both ways), often with base curved, hard and cartilaginous, solid to hollow; white to whitish, readily changing to blue when bruised; silky-fibrillose or scabrous toward base, base with conspicuous white rhizomorphs, (Guzman), 3-8cm x 0.2-0.6(0.8)cm, equal or with widened base, sometimes curved; whitish but staining blue to bluish-green when handled or bruised, (Arora)
VEIL  copiously cortinate, snow-white, rapidly deteriorating to an obscure ring zone, (Stamets), cortinate and well-developed, delicate and white when young, fleeting when mature or remnants remain, fibrillose in upper part of stem, no ring, (Guzman), "fibrillose or cobwebby, copious but disappearing or at most forming a very slight ring or hairy zone on stalk", (Arora)
ODOR  farinaceous especially when young (Guzman)
TASTE  farinaceous especially when young (Guzman)
EDIBILITY  hallucinogenic and potent, especially raw, (Arora), along with azurescens, baeocystis, semilanceata and strictipes, the most powerful hallucinogenic mushrooms in the north temperate zone, one or two caps per dose, maximum of 0.3-1.7% psilocybin, 0.28-0.51% psilocin, 0.02-0.03% baeocystin, (Arora, Stamets)
HABITAT  scattered to gregarious in humus enriched with woody debris, amongst leaves and twigs, in woodchips, sawdust, or in debris fields rich with rotting wood, often under mixed woods at the edges of lawns, along paths, and in heavily mulched rhododendron and rose gardens, grows well with rhododendrons, azaleas, lupines, (Stamets), gregarious, rarely scattered, sometimes forming rings, on humus or on very rotten wood mixed with soil, or on sawdust or soil mulched containing wood chips or bark, in deciduous forests, but also very common in gardens and under bushes, very rarely in grasses, (Guzman), widely scattered to densely gregarious on wood chips, sawdust, mulch, and humus, and on lawns rich in lignin, partial to conifer debris but also fond of alder and eucalyptus, (Arora)
SPORE DEPOSIT  dark purplish-brown (Stamets), dark brown violet or fuscous (Guzman), purple-brown to purple-gray or purple-black, (Arora)
MICROSCOPIC  spores 9-12 x 5-9 microns, elongate-elliptic, (Stamets); basidia 4-spored; pleurocystidia not reported by Wakefield, but collections in Pacific Northwest have abundant capitate pleurocystidia 17-33 x 5-8.8 microns, fusoid-ventricose to subpy
NAME ORIGIN  means 'becoming blue'
SIMILAR  like azurescens but wavy cap margin and lacks distinct umbo; like liniformans which does not have pleurocystidia; like baeocystis which has a more conical cap that is usually olive-brown when young and less copious veil; like strictipes with a long slender stem (4-13cm x 0.2-0.3cm)
SOURCES  Stamets*, Guzman, Arora*, Lincoff(2)*, Ammirati(11)*
FAMILY  Strophariaceae of Order Agaricales



PANAEOLUS SUBBALTEATUS:
LATIN NAME(S)  Panaeolus subbalteatus  Berk. & Broome;  Panaeolus venenosus  Murrill
ENGLISH NAME(S)  belted Panaeolus
NOTES  may be complex of closely related species whose features according to Arora (whose description of the group is given below) include convex to broadly umbonate to flat but not bellshaped cap, frequent presence of a darker marginal band on the cap as it dries, brown gills when young, rather firm stem, absent veil, and black spore deposit; Breitenbach & Kranzlin give Panaeolus subbalteatus (Berk. & Br.) Sacc. and Panaeolus venenosus Murrill as synonyms of Panaeolus cinctulus Bolt.; P. subbalteatus reported from Pacific Northwest according to Stamets, AK (Miller)
CAP  4-5cm, convex to bellshaped, then broadly convex, finally expanding to nearly flat with a broad umbo; cinnamon brown to orange cinnamon brown, fading to tan in drying with dark brown encircling zone around margin, may bruise bluish over a long period of time, (Stamets), 2-6cm, convex or bluntly conical becoming broadly convex to broadly umbonate to flat or with uplifted margin, not bellshaped; brown to reddish-brown or cinnamon-brown when moist, fading as it dries to tan, buff, or even whitish (or grayish from spores), often with a darker (reddish-brown to brown or dark gray) marginal zone when partially dry; smooth or wrinkled, in age sometimes breaking into scales (fissured), not viscid, margin not striate, (Arora)
FLESH  thin; brownish, (Arora)
GILLS  adnate to uncinate, close, slightly swollen in the center, with three tiers of subgills; brownish and mottled, with whitish edges, blackish when mature, (Stamets), adnate to adnexed or seceding, close, broad; at first pale watery brown or reddish-brown, darkening gradually to black, edges whitish, faces usually mottled in age, (Arora)
STEM  5-6cm x 0.2-0.4cm, brittle, hollow, fibrous; reddish beneath minute whitish fibrils, darkening downward, often bruising bluish at base, (Stamets), 4-10cm x (0.1)0.3-0.6(1.0)cm, equal or tapered at either end, straight, hollow but not fragile; brown to reddish-brown, but often appearing whitish from a fine powder, or dusted gray by spores, top often paler; usually longitudinally striate throughout, base (and mycelium) occasionally staining faintly bluish when bruised, (Arora)
VEIL  absent (Arora)
ODOR 
TASTE 
EDIBILITY  weakly to moderately hallucinogenic, contains psilocybin and baeocystin but no psilocin, anecdotal reports of stomach cramps, loss of muscular strength, malaise when eaten raw, not "very poisonous" as indicated by alternate name venenosus, (Stamets)
HABITAT  grows caespitosely (in tufts) to gregariously in dung or in well-manured ground in the spring, summer, and early fall, (Stamets), scattered to densely gregarious - often in small clumps - in manure, compost, and fertilized lawns, (Arora)
SPORE DEPOSIT  black (Stamets, Arora)
MICROSCOPIC  spores 10-14 x 7-9 microns, elliptic, smooth, (Arora), spores 11.5-14 x 7.5-9.5 microns, somewhat elliptic in face view, lemon-shaped in side view, presumably with germ pore; basidia 2-spored and 4-spored, pleurocystidia absent, cheilocystidia present 14-21 x 3-7 microns, variable mostly pear-shaped, (Stamets)
NAME ORIGIN  means "belted"
SIMILAR  Psilocybe but dry cap and black spores; like foenisecii (which can have dark band), but subbalteatus larger and black gills in age and less often on grass, fimicola (smaller dark gray cap) and acuminatus (smaller cap not expanding) also may have dark band along margin
SOURCES  Stamets, Arora*, Lincoff(2)*,  Schalkwijk-Barendsen*, Ammirati(11)*, Breitenbach(4), Miller(8)
FAMILY  Strophariaceae of Order Agaricales

Photo by me :smile:


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Registered: 02/26/04
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Re: newbie questions [Re: angryshroom]
    #2391860 - 03/01/04 06:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hmm i found some that look like the pan subbs but without the dark ring but the description otherwise seems pretty close plus i think they're in season

nowhere near confident enough to try them though


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392286 - 03/01/04 08:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Panaeolus subbalteatus does not have a dark ring. No ring is visible.

mj


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: newbie questions [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2392390 - 03/01/04 09:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

on your website they do john.





and here is are 2 images i grabbed really quickly off erowid..






i'm confused as to what you meant when you said they didn't have a dark ring.


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: Rebirtha]
    #2392413 - 03/01/04 09:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

well they look almost exactly like that except on the edge there isn't that dark ring

the gill and stalk descriptions also fit it to a t but im still wary because im so inexperienced


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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: newbie questions [Re: Rebirtha]
    #2392432 - 03/01/04 09:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Subbalteatus have dark bands around their margins.

They have no veils, no visible veils at least.


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #2392455 - 03/01/04 10:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

ive seen some pictures with the ring and some pictures without but i dont know which sites to trust

if it doesn't have the ring you dont think its a pan subb?


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392484 - 03/01/04 10:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

As most will have the ring on the cap, I have also seen some without it. They are much more uncommon though, and it probably had something to do with the weather and rain.

They will all have a jet black sporeprint, and have dark gray gills, with white edges. The stems will have small white fibrils, and the color of the stem is usually a rusty red or dark brown-red.

Here is a picture of some subbalteatus without the characteristical belt. Notice the ones in the background have the belt though.



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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: newbie questions [Re: angryshroom]
    #2392495 - 03/01/04 10:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i guess he meant veil.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: newbie questions [Re: Rebirtha]
    #2392513 - 03/01/04 10:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I think MJ meant a veil...

I was thinking it was weird that he would straight out say that subbalteatus do NOT have dark rings on the cap...after all they are called "The belted Panaeolus". heh


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: angryshroom]
    #2392515 - 03/01/04 10:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yah im taking a spore print and i report back in afew hours but i found a bunch in the feild that appear like some of the pan subbs i've seen in pics

one last question and i'll stop bugging you because i dont think i'll be able to be 100% sure are there any deadly look alikes in california


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392541 - 03/01/04 10:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Depends on how good your eyes are. For me, the obvious look-a-like is Panaeolus foenisecii. It is not toxic, however, for someone just starting to look for mushrooms, there could be quite a few look-a-likes.

You really need to give us some information on your mushroom that you found. Like the habitat could tell us everything.

If you didn't find it in 1) Horse manure/stable cleanings, 2) A very well manacured/manured lawn, you probably didnt find subbalteatus.

Whats the size of the mushroom, whats the colors etc...


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392544 - 03/01/04 10:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hmm its hard to tell, pics of the mushroom and spore print, could help you.. maybe you got a Panaeolus foenisecii.. but those sometimes have the dark rimmed caps, it depends though, i've seen many without them. it looks similar to a pan. subb. in many aspects, especially to a newbie. but good luck.

and angryshroom, i enjoyed your photo of the pan subbs with out the rings, handn't seen any like that around here. very nice.


edit: ahh beat me to it with the foenisecii


Edited by Rebirtha (03/01/04 10:30 PM)


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: angryshroom]
    #2392569 - 03/01/04 10:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hmmm i found it in a feild across the street from my house it has mostly weeds growing in it no grass

they're about 2-3 cm tall
caps are about 1 cm wide

tannish caps that get slightly darker in the middle
dark gills lighten up towards the edge

stem is tan


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392588 - 03/01/04 10:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Do they look similar to these:



These are Panaeolus foenisceii


Edited by angryshroom (03/01/04 10:39 PM)


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: angryshroom]
    #2392597 - 03/01/04 10:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

gills and stems do
they look alot like the middle one minus the brown ring


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: newbie questions [Re: paintitblack]
    #2392601 - 03/01/04 10:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)





these are also pan foenisceii without the brown rings.

edit:image added


Edited by Rebirtha (03/01/04 10:44 PM)


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Offlinepaintitblack
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Re: newbie questions [Re: Rebirtha]
    #2392619 - 03/01/04 10:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

seems to dark although i have seen some pics of the pan subb that dark


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