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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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Kratom Varieties?
    #23253751 -

What are the different qualities, of different strains of Kratom, or what makes one better than the others?


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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23253851 -

I have a ton of Mitragyna hirsuta seedling going right. They were a gift. Google it and youll find thw active in it is similar to that of speciosa. The only thing is you must consume more of it. There is an ebay vendor who sells parvifolia seeds but i dont know too much about that one. It would be intersting to see more


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23254252 -

Are the different colors and leaf shapes considered to be hybrids of different subspecies?


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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23254281 -

Man i dont know but the hirsuta seedlings look like kratom. A bunch have germinated now. I had a few after the first couple of days and then i forgot to tightly close the lid and they died. Then we got all this rain and a ton came out from the pods. Only thing is i didnt break up some of the pods and there is clumps of seedlings everywhere. Let me get a pic.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23254309 -



The last one is of six that seperated. I should have really broken those pods up though. I fear most of the clumps will eventually die.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23254610 -

How old do you think they were, without losing viability?


--------------------
WEF defector.

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23254663 -

Man i dont know. But now vwry old for the great germination rate. Maybe less than a month.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23255441 -

ferrel, I believe he's talking about the different strains of Kratom as in Bali, Borneo, Thai, Red Veined, that sort of thing... They are like different strains of Cannabis, while all still being Mitragyna speciosa. What you're growing is a different species of plant altogether, check this out:

Quote:
Kra thum khok (Mitragyna hirsuta)
Mitragyna hirsuta is a tall tree found in parts of Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam. It’s closely related to Mitragyna speciosa and the leaves have similar paradoxical effects: both stimulating and sedative at the same time.

In Thailand it’s called kra thum khok and the leaves are chewed, sometimes together with betel nuts (Areca catechu), or brewed with hot water. The plant contains a number of alkaloids but the main active constituent in Mitragyna hirsuta is Mitraphylline, which is chemically related to mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine found in M. speciosa.



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Edited by theMallacht (05/21/16 08:37 PM)

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: theMallacht]
    #23256778 -

theMallacht said:
ferrel, I believe he's talking about the different strains of Kratom as in Bali, Borneo, Thai, Red Veined, that sort of thing... They are like different strains of Cannabis, while all still being Mitragyna speciosa. What you're growing is a different species of plant altogether, check this out:

Quote:
Kra thum khok (Mitragyna hirsuta)
Mitragyna hirsuta is a tall tree found in parts of Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam. It’s closely related to Mitragyna speciosa and the leaves have similar paradoxical effects: both stimulating and sedative at the same time.

In Thailand it’s called kra thum khok and the leaves are chewed, sometimes together with betel nuts (Areca catechu), or brewed with hot water. The plant contains a number of alkaloids but the main active constituent in Mitragyna hirsuta is Mitraphylline, which is chemically related to mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine found in M. speciosa.



Sorry. I thought he meant species. Varieties shmarieties. Some people may never know. What they say red vein and bali could be hirsuta in disguise and why it may be weaker.

The plant i got from you, may richard rest in peace, is pretty strong. My scale tops out at 50 grams i believe and i got way more than that in a jar should i ever feel the need to partake.

Alls im saying is its apples and oranges. Still tasty but different. :shrug:


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human] * 2
    #23257180 -

the many varieties sold dry on webshops are almost always not varieties but different processing types, or at best different locales.  the species is all over SE Asia, i collect plants from many different countries and one thing i can say with absolute fact is that all countries produce all color forms.  often we see "XYZ color" vein.  vein color is variable and surely there is some dominance to pigments in certain plants but all countries produce all color veins.  i have plants that produce all the vein colors on a single plant at the same time, its nothing strange.  I have said it before but i dont think people want to hear it cause it makes less money, but there is a very important difference in processed material variation compared to plant variation.  for example i can make easily 6+ different types of very good quality kratom that people claim to have different effects from a  single plant.  this is dried product variation.  that is to say all the vein color types you see can come from a single plant and is simply an age, environment, weather, or harvesting difference.  It is a real different but it is certainly *not* a different variety of plant.  Then we see the different locales, ie borneo, thai, malaysia etc.  these too are important factors, but perhaps mostly for their relation to cultivation not so much use.  as thai and borneo, for example, can be exactly the same in effect and also be miles apart, its about harvesting and the specific area. Borneo is huge, and i have collected plants there.  Thailand the same.  they both overlap in effects and environmental conditions etc.  there are so many variables so its hard to really nail down until real lab test depict honest collections, which is very hard to do believe it or not...too much $ in it.  the kratom "industry" is so flawed mostly because its based on unreliable bioassay type shit which no one can confirm in any kind of reliable manner.  so i would argue the best way is to buy from a single source you like because it is more likely to stay consistent (note it often changes from stores to whomever sells it cheaper at acceptable quality).  My main trees, which are all clones, are different effects due to geographic location.  meaning on my farm here in the south they have a far different feeling (according to bioassay, again not at all reliable) than the exact same plants of same age grown in east and northern locations.  Could be a million differnet reasons as soil, temperature, humidity, UV, rain, accompanying flora/fauna/mycoflora, + a billion other factors.

I guess if anyone wants to really focus on breeding quality, we must first get the chemicals needed right, and have an affordable way to test for said chemicals because its only the farmers and/or harvesters which have the access to get the material for selection.  Same as every other bio product available, just kratom is not very popular compared to things like coffee, mangoes, pork or weed....

in the end with niche products which have a relatively low usage level, like kratom, the best bet is to have a  farmer/grower that is sticking to his own land to select because then we can at least narrow down some of the variables as the climate/weather/soil etc will be fairly similar.  comparing 1000 square km over there to 1000 square km over here is going to be fairly useless for finding any kind of facts, in this regard its more of a marketing/popularity contest it seems.  This is where good vendors, who do not constantly change suppliers on alibaba (or whatever) are probably worth theior weight in gold, because there is at least some kind of consistency with their product.

as for plants themselves, i'm unaware of any true varieties, just marketing schemes.  perhaps the horned type could qualify, but i have seen many a plant go horned and revert back and forth fairly commonly.  so maybe a strictly horned type that never reverts could be described by someone.  but then i find it interesting how many locale types of kratom also have a horned variant...this kind of points out the obvious that its a common trait amongst the species, not a separate variety.  anyway, this discussion comes up a lot among various different plants species, its not unique to kratom.  vegetable/fruit production is famous for it.  people on this site might be more familiar with the term "pollen chucker" with weed and how every seed grown plant is unique, but doesnt qualify as a variety.  we can use this mind set in kratom, just cause a person grows a unique seed grown plant, doesnt make it any more special until they have the lab results to prove it.

sorry that was supposed to be a short post....


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: kadakuda]
    #23258795 -

kadakuda said:
the many varieties sold dry on webshops are almost always not varieties but different processing types, or at best different locales.


:strokebeard: Like with tea.

kadakuda said:
in the end with niche products which have a relatively low usage level


It's not exactly an economy of scale, but, when I request cuttings, in the Market Place, 50-100 people read.

I wonder whether an effective means of mass production could make it into a household commodity.

kadakuda said:
sorry that was supposed to be a short post....


:thumbup:I thought it was a thorough answer.


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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23258815 -

ferrel_human said:
I thought he meant species. Varieties shmarieties.


Like with marijuana varieties, which are said to have genetics, from different subspecies.

In the case of fruits, such as an apples and oranges, I am told that the buyer will never care, whether your fruit was true to seed or resembles it's parents.

It's a matter of intellectual property.

You're not supposed to clone someone else's work or put someone else's name, on something mildly different.

It doesn't mean that you're growing something inferior. It just has different qualities.

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23259828 -

Quote:
It's not exactly an economy of scale, but, when I request cuttings, in the Market Place, 50-100 people read.

I wonder whether an effective means of mass production could make it into a household commodity.


I mean there is not enough interest to make the years and acres of field trials and lab testing to make it worth while.  I could be wrong, but it seems like it isnt THAT popular to make those very large expenses of time and money worth it.  plus there is am uncertain future as far as legality, i dont think many people want to risk so much money on something that might get cut down later on.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: kadakuda]
    #23261166 -

Are people speaking informally, when they talk about "testing" these things, or is lab equipment reasonably accessible, to be used by a member of the public?


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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23268937 -

It will depend if you live in a legal area.  The easiest way for the common guy to get it done is befriend a university student and use their lab.  Paying a lab could be done but would not be cheap, so probably only larger companies would bother.  but with the marketing of the product the way it is and the customer base just eating it up without much thought, why pay the expense to basically make half your "varieties" void?  If i had the money for lab testing i would love to do it, but i dont so i wont haha.

Its very similar in damn near any market.  Look at how popular Iphones are and they are only marginally better and made in shit conditions in china....doesnt add up.  look how many mango varieties are actually clones of some original types like Irwin, but get rebranded as something else (often to avoid any patent/rights issues).  Its really not uncommon, and perhaps not even wrong, that people will pick leaves early, give them a name.  pick leaves late, call it a new variety.  dry leaves in sun, another.  dry leaves at low temp which gives a new color, new type.  etc.  The only problem i personally have is that marketers are not thinking in any way shape or form about transparency and they are fucking up the botanical truth behind their plants.  over here, chinese medicine is FAMOUSLY bad for giving out any info.  and in fact we have been studying a lot here and many things sold as "XYZ name" are not just different varieties but different species.  licorice and goji are very common examples of different species being sold under the same name.  The food, medicine, electronics, automotive etc industries are no less corrupt and tainted than the drug trade.  Its actually shocking just how our food/medicine especially is made and the whole process of craziness it goes through.

so ya, kratom trade is like any other, misleading.  There are different processed types, i doubt many of them are from unique botanical varieties.  Clones, yes.  varieties, no.  i breed and select clones as well, but i wouldnt ever go so far as to call them a true variety.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: kadakuda]
    #23269916 -

kadakuda said:
It will depend if you live in a legal area.


Yes.

kadakuda said:
why pay the expense to basically make half your "varieties" void?
...Its actually shocking just how our food/medicine especially is made and the whole process of craziness it goes through.


I may have to go through that craziness, as I am developing new growing techniques, for commercially-important plants.

(Ideally, a company takes legal responsibility, pays a royalty, and my intellectual property will be free, for personal use.)


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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: durian_2008]
    #23289966 -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna m.speciosa and m.javanica are used in gas station kratom shots.


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PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN get back to the garden

some came singing, some come to play, some come for keeping the dark away

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Re: Kratom Varieties? [Re: ellomello]
    #23291705 -

The Kratom Bible:
A Complete Guide to Kratom
http://ensobotanicals.com/kratom/


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