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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Ezuma]
    #22621903 -

What's worse than people not working is working with people pretending to work...


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Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Shiithead]
    #22621917 -

This is true, but not really relevant to anything I said. Maybe you live around a bunch of leeching low lifes, but most of the people I know want to be productive or at least to have some direction and structure to their lives :shrug:


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Ezuma]
    #22621932 -

Ezuma said:
Outlaw308 said:
Kinda new here, and was going to post something introductory, but hell with it I'll dive right in to this one. That money will have to come from taxation, it's no different than Hillary and Bernie vowing to "make the wealthy pay" for everything. Not to mention, if you have a government guaranteed income whether you work or not, what's the point in being responsible and productive? Hell, I'm an alcoholic that hasn't drank in 17 months because I fuck everything up when I do, so best not to start again, but if I was guaranteed a check every month regardless, fuck it, why not just go back to staying hammered 24/7?


and yet giving taxpayer money to the banks is a good practice? Who exactly is society for? Citizens, or an insidious tumor of uber rich bankers and CEOs?


How about letting people keep the money they work for instead of redistributing it?


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You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.  ~Sir Winston Churchill

The World is my Country, All Mankind is my Brethren, and my Religion is to do Good.  ~Thomas Paine

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #22621935 -

Personally I think this makes more sense than having some bloated beauraucracy give people a hard time for receiving welfare money.

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Outlaw308]
    #22621951 -

Outlaw308 said:
Ezuma said:
Outlaw308 said:
Kinda new here, and was going to post something introductory, but hell with it I'll dive right in to this one. That money will have to come from taxation, it's no different than Hillary and Bernie vowing to "make the wealthy pay" for everything. Not to mention, if you have a government guaranteed income whether you work or not, what's the point in being responsible and productive? Hell, I'm an alcoholic that hasn't drank in 17 months because I fuck everything up when I do, so best not to start again, but if I was guaranteed a check every month regardless, fuck it, why not just go back to staying hammered 24/7?


and yet giving taxpayer money to the banks is a good practice? Who exactly is society for? Citizens, or an insidious tumor of uber rich bankers and CEOs?


How about letting people keep the money they work for instead of redistributing it?


taxes are needed if you want any kind of infrastructure. Corporations can afford to pay and ought to pay much higher taxes.
The cost of inequality and poverty go beyond welfare. In a society where a certain standard of living is upheld, you would save money with lower incarceration rates less funding needed for policing fewer unwanted or abandoned children who in turn often grow up to become criminals etc.

The idea is to make a world people WANT to live in, and WANT to work to maintain and WANT to defend against potential foreign enemies. By and large the United States are still a decent place, but they could be better. It's not a matter of resources even, but a matter of corporate interests and political corruption.


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Outlaw308] * 1
    #22621987 -

It's called "mincome" a universal vajra feed minimum income.

My province is the only one that actually tried it at one point and apparently there is some talk of bringing it back.

I generally support the idea and some studies have shown it works and doesn't lead to the problems people assume.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Ezuma]
    #22621989 -

Ezuma said:
Outlaw308 said:
Ezuma said:
Outlaw308 said:
Kinda new here, and was going to post something introductory, but hell with it I'll dive right in to this one. That money will have to come from taxation, it's no different than Hillary and Bernie vowing to "make the wealthy pay" for everything. Not to mention, if you have a government guaranteed income whether you work or not, what's the point in being responsible and productive? Hell, I'm an alcoholic that hasn't drank in 17 months because I fuck everything up when I do, so best not to start again, but if I was guaranteed a check every month regardless, fuck it, why not just go back to staying hammered 24/7?


and yet giving taxpayer money to the banks is a good practice? Who exactly is society for? Citizens, or an insidious tumor of uber rich bankers and CEOs?


How about letting people keep the money they work for instead of redistributing it?


taxes are needed if you want any kind of infrastructure. Corporations can afford to pay and ought to pay much higher taxes.
The cost of inequality and poverty go beyond welfare. In a society where a certain standard of living is upheld, you would save money with lower incarceration rates less funding needed for policing fewer unwanted or abandoned children who in turn often grow up to become criminals etc.

The idea is to make a world people WANT to live in, and WANT to work to maintain and WANT to defend against potential foreign enemies. By and large the United States are still a decent place, but they could be better. It's not a matter of resources even, but a matter of corporate interests and political corruption.


Infrastructure and essential service is fine, although there were roads, fire depts and cops in the US before income taxes. Maybe if the American Government didn't spend so much on bombs, drug enforcement, prisons, and corporate handouts (all of which I would cut long before social welfare), social security and Affordable Care Act (which I am opposed to) wouldn't be on the brink of insolvency. Even at that, a handout for anyone just because they are lazy isn't a way to better society. It just encourages laziness and poor decision making.

Edited by Outlaw308 (12/06/15 04:05 PM)

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Outlaw308]
    #22622000 -

Ah good to see you are at least consistent with your thinking. I still support social programs and such, but I would get behind your vision before the perverted monstrosity that is the real american system.


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Ezuma]
    #22622024 -

Ezuma said:
Ah good to see you are at least consistent with your thinking. I still support social programs and such, but I would get behind your vision before the perverted monstrosity that is the real american system.


I don't have any problem with helping the disadvantaged, I just tend to think voluntary mutual aid and charity is better than coercive taxation and redistribution. Not that I would ever want to cut out those government programs overnight, but over time they could be phased out by addressing the underlying economic issues instead of quibbling over the band-aid that is the welfare system.


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You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.  ~Sir Winston Churchill

The World is my Country, All Mankind is my Brethren, and my Religion is to do Good.  ~Thomas Paine

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Outlaw308]
    #22622039 -

Outlaw308 said:
Ezuma said:
Ah good to see you are at least consistent with your thinking. I still support social programs and such, but I would get behind your vision before the perverted monstrosity that is the real american system.


I don't have any problem with helping the disadvantaged, I just tend to think voluntary mutual aid and charity is better than coercive taxation and redistribution. Not that I would ever want to cut out those government programs overnight, but over time they could be phased out by addressing the underlying economic issues instead of quibbling over the band-aid that is the welfare system.


I probably agree with you to an extent in that case. I am for free universal healthcare and a certain assured standard of living, but I do think the base issues once addressed, would remove the need for much of that spending.
If you had a society where fair pay and gainful employment were the norm, where education was solid and more accessible, where undesired children were not born and drug offenders not incarcerated, and mental health issues were dealt with competently and humanely, many of the problems would become much cheaper to deal with


--------------------


Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Ezuma]
    #22622068 -

Ezuma said:
I probably agree with you to an extent in that case. I am for free universal healthcare and a certain assured standard of living, but I do think the base issues once addressed, would remove the need for much of that spending.
If you had a society where fair pay and gainful employment were the norm, where education was solid and more accessible, where undesired children were not born and drug offenders not incarcerated, and mental health issues were dealt with competently and humanely, many of the problems would become much cheaper to deal with


Shame that TPTB work as hard as possible to make this impossible.

Want to be a mental health worker? 8 years of fucking college. GOOD LUCK LOL.

Healthcare(particularly psychiatric) has steadily raised in price since the 30's, even when you count for inflation. And the minimum wage has dropped significantly when you count inflation (it would be about 20-22$)

Powerful people want the public to be upset, mentally ill, angry people.

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Adolin]
    #22622082 -

Yes. Unfortunately human misery is profitable, and the worst among us are often the most powerful.


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Adolin]
    #22622137 -

Gresh said:
Ezuma said:
I probably agree with you to an extent in that case. I am for free universal healthcare and a certain assured standard of living, but I do think the base issues once addressed, would remove the need for much of that spending.
If you had a society where fair pay and gainful employment were the norm, where education was solid and more accessible, where undesired children were not born and drug offenders not incarcerated, and mental health issues were dealt with competently and humanely, many of the problems would become much cheaper to deal with


Shame that TPTB work as hard as possible to make this impossible.

Want to be a mental health worker? 8 years of fucking college. GOOD LUCK LOL.

Healthcare(particularly psychiatric) has steadily raised in price since the 30's, even when you count for inflation. And the minimum wage has dropped significantly when you count inflation (it would be about 20-22$)

Powerful people want the public to be upset, mentally ill, angry people.


Healthcare costs in the US have been on the rise since the Gov't got involved in healthcare. True free markets would offer more competitive costs. Contrary to popular belief, true free markets are self regulating. Yeah, I'm one of those insane libertarians that doesn't think government does anything right, and only makes everything it gets involved in worse.


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You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.  ~Sir Winston Churchill

The World is my Country, All Mankind is my Brethren, and my Religion is to do Good.  ~Thomas Paine

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Outlaw308] * 1
    #22622598 -

Taxes are a better way to fund a government than tariffs (what we ran our government on before the national income tax), which are completely ass-backwards economically speaking.

Healthcare costs have been rising since before the government became involved in healthcare.  The healthcare market can never be a free market because there is heavy information asymmetry between providers and consumers about what services are available, what services are actually needed, and how much treatment actually costs at various hospitals.


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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Asante]
    #22622599 -

Asante said:
zappaisgod said:
Finland isn't giving anybody anything



Its all coming from your pocket zappa.. Somehow Finland has connected their socialist government program directly to your tax money.


I didn't say I was paying for it.  But some real person is.  I know damn well it isn't you.


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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22622611 -

All Fins pay taxes.
All Fins get the €800.

Therefore they all pay.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Asante]
    #22622656 -

That's stupid everyone knows the way to stimulate an economy is to give the rich tax breaks and bailouts so that the money can trickle down.  :sadyes:

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: Asante]
    #22622680 -

Asante said:
All Fins pay taxes.
All Fins get the €800.

Therefore they all pay.


All Finns pay taxes?  Even Finns who have no income?  Some Finns pay much more than other Finns.  The Finnish government doesn't pay anything.  They transfer money from some and send it to some others and take a cut to do so.  The vig.


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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: zappaisgod] * 2
    #22622720 -

Well... When your nation is rich enough to be able to build that kind of safety net, you're doing something right and should definitely implement it.

It eliminates extreme poverty. That fact alone reduces crime, improve health, increases education. It's level up. The rest is just an increase in quality of life in general.

But yes, you will have to sacrifice roughly the cost of a new car through taxes every year if you're making good money


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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen $867 a month [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22622725 -

moonrockmushy said:
That's stupid everyone knows the way to stimulate an economy is to give the rich tax breaks and bailouts so that the money can trickle down.  :sadyes:


Whether or not the money actually "trickles down" when not taxed is open to debate. Something that isn't open to debate is the fact that when it is taken through taxation, it can't "trickle down" because it's not there anymore.


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You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.  ~Sir Winston Churchill

The World is my Country, All Mankind is my Brethren, and my Religion is to do Good.  ~Thomas Paine

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