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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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mental misstep * 2
    #21168243 -

i have recently been pondering for perhaps the thousandth time the process of thought turned belief.

It strikes me as an interesting question that any such mechanism should exist in the first place. In what way does the relative inflexibility of belief benefit the human organism? One reason I see is decision making. One bases decisions off of belief by and large it seems.

Now really think about this with me if you will. I think it has significant depth. A decision involves many factors including but not limited to memory, judgment, expectation, environmental circumstances, and desires. That is quite a lot flooding in to each decision. Which is to say it is quite a lot flooding in to each belief.

And it gets really a bit twisted when I consider that most of this is then projected onto the world at large. Memory is used to predict what will happen "out there". Judgment attempts to discern which memories are best suited for the given circumstances. Which feeds back in to a more precise expectation -- an expected repeat of selective memory. And desire feeds in all along the way far as I can tell. It determines which memories surface most readily, what is judged "good", and what outcome is desirable.

And it is at this depth that IMO the clearest examples of mental missteps can be seen. There is very little if any concreteness to any of what we project outward. Our memories are personal and insubstantial and yet for some reason we take this "knowledge" to be very concrete. Our judgments are subjective and largely based on what has worked well in our personal lives, not necessarily for anyone else. And expectation is just about as ethereal as it can get. There is no solid ground to be found here at all. It is less solid than memory which is already selective, malleable, and significantly divorced from it's original ground of experience.

Despite this we act as if these beliefs are somehow based in reality, solidity, and facts. We often persecute others using these beliefs. I see very little difference at this level between someone who believes in creationism and someone who believes in evolution. Both are relying on the same mental movements and performing the same mental misstep. That mental misstep is in projecting it on to the external world as if it were actually existing all around as a solid fixture. When I think more truthfully what is being experienced is extremely personal.

And before someone jumps on that last paragraph, taking context away, this is not attempting to say that creationism and evolution are on par across the board. so please save the insults/insinuations. There are plenty of extremely obvious ways in which they differ.

Nope, this is referencing specifically the mental process of belief. The way in which we "buy" into our own personal process and then expect that the world operates according to our personal process. I think it's a necessary process but wonder whether the secondary process of expecting others to have the same experience is also necessary.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle]
    #21168444 -

Kickle said:
... Memory is used to predict what will happen "out there". ...


I know I know, take a tiny fragment and make a big deal out of context.

but,

Examining this little fragment may help by being the most critical fulcrum in understanding what is happening:

I agree that in predicting or looking to upcoming events, memory plays a projective part in what is perceived to be happening,

but -

Memory is not used to do anything.
it just happens (resultant);
and,
thence the prediction or predictive (anticipitative) attitude emerges...

Memory is an associative result. It is not an extension of a self that remembers. It is an electro-organic event/process cascading from mental contents mixed with sensation.

Yes it is the material out of which belief (a kind of attitude really) is composed.

and Yes it is "automatic" or "conditioned"
but this does not deny the place of free will, since attitudes (or beliefs if you will) can be cultivated, learned and unlearned.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #21168477 -

Nice OP.  You can entertain yourself all day noticing all the weird shit about humans.  Or you can make yourself sick depending on your frame of mind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle]
    #21168614 -

If we didn't infer and hold fast a belief about the "external world," then we wouldn't be at the top of the food chain. Heavy things fall down, the sun will be in a particular position in the sky at noon, and if a face is hidden from sight behind a pair of hands, it still exists even though I can't see it (peekaboo!).

I think that a distinction can be made there. You speak mostly of "higher order" or intangible beliefs, whereas I'm obviously referencing physical phenomena. The former may very well not hold any ground for being an unwavering characteristic of one's worldview, but the latter we need very much for survival. Maybe the untrained brain treats the concept of belief the same, regardless of the content. :shrug:


--------------------
full blown human

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #21168666 -

I think even the trained brain does :frown:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: mental misstep [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21168702 -

redgreenvines said:
Kickle said:
... Memory is used to predict what will happen "out there". ...


I know I know, take a tiny fragment and make a big deal out of context.

but,

Examining this little fragment may help by being the most critical fulcrum in understanding what is happening:

I agree that in predicting or looking to upcoming events, memory plays a projective part in what is perceived to be happening,

but -

Memory is not used to do anything.
it just happens (resultant);
and,
thence the prediction or predictive (anticipitative) attitude emerges...

Memory is an associative result. It is not an extension of a self that remembers. It is an electro-organic event/process cascading from mental contents mixed with sensation.

Yes it is the material out of which belief (a kind of attitude really) is composed.

and Yes it is "automatic" or "conditioned"
but this does not deny the place of free will, since attitudes (or beliefs if you will) can be cultivated, learned and unlearned.


I agree that use is a personification where there is likely no person to be found
at the same time though I think it fits because the memory is personal [individual] and serves that end


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #21168779 -

i think rigid belief was bred in to humans because those who disbelieved in the state and religion would be ostracized from the group or killed.

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #21169002 -

It seems to be a matter of efficiency. Even seeing how pervasive it is we will still question ourselves only on a selective basis. The hope is that the desire for clarity will show us our biases when it's most suitable. To always question every thought in spite of their apparent stability would be a big drain.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Rahz]
    #21171737 -

Sounds right on the money to me. Path of least resistance wins


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle]
    #21171953 -

Perhaps a sea of creation was created and then containers of consciousness to operate within that sea were created, and in some of the incarnations of suchness, the memory of creating the creation including its variables was lost. ?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kickle]
    #21175231 -

Belief and confirming belief are more or less suitible to us, but living in a general occupation with this can become a bit strictured. The virtue of knowledge, its utility and mechanism is a thing of values. As Plato determined episteme (knowledge) to be a virtue, much of what is said for the sake of knowledge can seem very important, even moralistic today.

The "virtue" of knowledge, where one thing comes of another, can also be taken in a practical sense. In other words, it may be that much of formal consistency may be found in embodied practices which we do not need to stand for in respect to anyone and everyone at all times.

The form of embodied practice may come prior to any suggestive claim of the broader value of a virtue of a true belief. So it is at least worth thoughtfully considering once in a while whether truth or correctness needs to be found in the certain form of an argument, or at all.

Edited by Kurt (01/25/15 08:26 PM)

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kurt]
    #21175265 -

the human psyche can be divided into parts, sometimes they may have motives which contradict eachother.

think of id, ego, superego... sometimes the motives can all be in-alignment (during sex for instance).. or they can all have separate motives.

it's all about which part of the psyche builds the largest stack of motives, which determines what the organism will do from there

fight/flight responses get thrown into the mix there somewhere as well. as does dopamine triggers you've picked up from various habits, hormones/libido level, and whatever other drugs running through your body

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Envix]
    #21175463 -

Envix, I am not sure why you are telling me of these theories. (?)

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kurt]
    #21175637 -

nor am i sure as to why you are unsure


--------------------
ONE-EYED WANT
-------------------------
knock a hoe out this dimension, continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie
rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, shLong, ModestMouse, vinsue, big worm (sketch), tim

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Envix]
    #21175809 -

Okay Envix, I guess I forgot where I was for a moment.

Let me clarify. If you would rather insinuate something about my intelligence than explain the connection you are making, I'm okay with that.

Really, I would love to engage with what you are saying, but I don't see what your point is by suggesting theoretical slants off the top of your head.

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kurt]
    #21176268 -

i figured you would say something like that


--------------------
ONE-EYED WANT
-------------------------
knock a hoe out this dimension, continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie
rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, shLong, ModestMouse, vinsue, big worm (sketch), tim

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Envix]
    #21176292 -

:lol:


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: mental misstep [Re: Envix]
    #21177643 -

Kurt said:
Belief and confirming belief are more or less suitible to us, but living in a general occupation with this can become a bit strictured. The virtue of knowledge, its utility and mechanism is a thing of values. As Plato determined episteme (knowledge) to be a virtue, much of what is said for the sake of knowledge can seem very important, even moralistic today.

The "virtue" of knowledge, where one thing comes of another, can also be taken in a practical sense. In other words, it may be that much of formal consistency may be found in embodied practices which we do not need to stand for in respect to anyone and everyone at all times.

The form of embodied practice may come prior to any suggestive claim of the broader value of a virtue of a true belief. So it is at least worth thoughtfully considering once in a while whether truth or correctness needs to be found in the certain form of an argument, or at all.


Envix said:
the human psyche can be divided into parts, sometimes they may have motives which contradict eachother.

think of id, ego, superego... sometimes the motives can all be in-alignment (during sex for instance).. or they can all have separate motives.

it's all about which part of the psyche builds the largest stack of motives, which determines what the organism will do from there

fight/flight responses get thrown into the mix there somewhere as well. as does dopamine triggers you've picked up from various habits, hormones/libido level, and whatever other drugs running through your body


Kurt said:
Envix, I am not sure why you are telling me of these theories. (?)


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Re: mental misstep [Re: Kurt]
    #21182195 -

just to clarify, i wasn't addressing anyone in-particular in my original post. i was moreso just stating an idea regarding human behavior and how decisions are processed in the human psyche.


--------------------
ONE-EYED WANT
-------------------------
knock a hoe out this dimension, continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie
rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, shLong, ModestMouse, vinsue, big worm (sketch), tim

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: mental misstep [Re: Envix]
    #21183267 -

Sure, I thought you were freely associating generalities from the beginning. Thanks for clarifying this somewhat though.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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