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lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible?
    #2059707 -

i wanted to start my first batch of poppies this spring but i'd like to do it in some kind of stealth way, my mother is a doctor and she knows where morphine comes from, but she wouldn't mind me to plant some 'assorted' supermarket poppies (yeah, i still live with mom, what a shame).
i was to mix papaver rhoeas, orientale and somniferum and i though then it would get endemic to my garden after they set their seeds but then a question came to my mind - could the different species breed and origin undesirable/crappy (if you know what i mean) hybrids? like a somniferum X orientale or rhoeas? that wouldn't be cool for the next generations of endemic poppies...
thanks for your attention!


FH

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: felixhigh]
    #2059824 -

Nope, as far as I know those species won't breed

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: zeta]
    #2060843 -

woohoo! =D
can anyone else backup zetas info?
i know zeta is a very knowledgeful guy, just wouldnt mind to hear a few more opinions before putting my hands in the dirt... :wink:


FH

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: felixhigh]
    #2061269 -

The preferred choices for a breeding program are usually those individuals from the same species, since the genotypes combine freely without infertility problems or any hindrance to genetic recombination.

Breeding programs normally have specific goals and as a result at times the sources of genes required to accomplish a breeding objective are located in unrelated species. As a result breeders have to use different species this is known as a wide cross (interspecies cross) or even sometimes different genuses (intergeneric crosses). Interspecific hybridization is pretty hard and even more so intergeneric crosses. The reason is that they frequently result in sterile offspring. There?s a few genetic explanations about the various reasons why sterility happens. I don?t feel like explaining it now. If the F1 (your resulting hybrid) is not sterile however the F2 generation could and is most likely going to be sterile. Again there?s genetics involved in that but its called hybrid breakdown.

Some examples of wide crossing are in broccoli, it was used to broaden the genetic base and to select superior types. Broccoli, Cauliflower, and Cabbage are all Brassica oleracea (just a factoid); they?re all individuals of the same species but they?re expressions are very different. Also Parsley and Celery have been successfully crossed to produce new forms of leaf celery which is high in vitamin C, carotene and essential oils.

A possible way to to cross your poppies, you?ll have to look up a technique, but it normally involves flower manipulation by pulling off the anthers of one flower and then leaving the pistil and some sort of artificial pollination takes place by the breeder. Anyway here?s a schematic of the break down of suggestion i can think of if you really want to try this.

I must say though that this is a highly scientific process and you?re going to have to take great care for controlling various factors as well as intense record keeping and care. If you were to try to cross your poppies it would really be a scientific endeavor. I couldn?t possibly imagine some home grower trying this to this sort of extent, perhaps selecting for visible traits i?d be more inclined to see someone do it, but selecting for alkaloidal traits will be hard.

This experimental design suggestion relies on Polyploidy. The specific example i?m giving is again from the Brassica genus and somewhat distantly related species of that genus. This relies on amphidiploidy (a kind of polyploidy).

I have no ideas as to the genetics of poppies so that work will have to be done by you and your specific species you plan on using if you?re going to undertake this (as well as lots of research and plant sci knowledge) to determine if this suggestion can even be done. This is just off the top of my head possible way to investigate going about this.





The problem with polyploidy is reduced fertility or sterility. To elaborate a little more on what i said i wouldn?t is that the problem sometimes results from meiosis problems: odd number genomes are usually sterile. Sterile triploids are propagated vegetatively. Again i?m not too versed on the genetics of poppies. However in this post are some possible ways and possible problems. Most of all i hope this will be a stepping stone into you finding out the answer and coming back to us and telling us.


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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: neuro]
    #2061287 -

Awesome, thanks for the info

A topic I don't really get is self-fertilization
What proportion of plants do you suppose are capable of self-fertilization?
Do the seeds resulting from self-fertilization have exactly the same genetics as the parent?

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: zeta]
    #2061439 -

Quote:
A topic I don't really get is self-fertilization
What proportion of plants do you suppose are capable of self-fertilization?
Do the seeds resulting from self-fertilization have exactly the same genetics as the parent?


Plants that have both sexes on the same plant (monoecious) are "capable" so to speak of self-fertilization. Plants that are capable are first prioritizing pollen from other plants before they resort to self pollination. This also requires that the flowers be perfect, that is they have the male and female parts on the same flower and not separated to different budding times or separate flowers. If not fertilized by a pollen grain from another individual it will self fertilize if it's nature is to do so.

With plants there's always a lot of exceptions, there's no real hard and fast rule for a lot of things. Some plants do this and some plants do the exact opposite.

The resulting offspring will have more or less the same genetics but the differences will be in how they're arranged. In meiosis there is a process called "crossing over" that takes place at a certain phase of meiosis (i forget which), where the chromatids actually break apart and cross over with the sister chromatid and recombine. This is a way of getting genetic variation with the same set of genes. So provisionally yes it's the same genetics, nothing new was introduced but they're recombinant so they're expressions may differ.


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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: neuro]
    #2061533 -

how... complex! =)
lemme lubrify my brain and read it over again to see if i figure it out...

so, in the practice, if i plant all species together with insect pollinization (ala gangbang) i might get wide crossing (with lots of luck) and in the end i'll probably end up with lots of non viable seeds, the only viable ones being originated mostly from pollen of the same species...
right? (haven't lubed my brain yet).


FH

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: felixhigh]
    #2061607 -

>>so, in the practice, if i plant all species together with insect pollinization (ala gangbang) i might get wide crossing (with lots of luck) and in the end i'll probably end up with lots of non viable seeds, the only viable ones being originated mostly from pollen of the same species...
right? (haven't lubed my brain yet).

umm no.. it has to be specifically controlled..


--------------------
Garden FAQ
Free Ethno-Seed Thread
Tripper's Wiki

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Re: lame poppy question - interspecies breeding possible? [Re: neuro]
    #2061833 -

oh thank god! =)
thanks neuro, thats great to know...
gonna plant oriental flowers this summer for my first time!


FH

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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