OhMrJohnson said:

You wouldn't even really trip that hard though

I don't believe ergot is very psychoactive on its own if at all

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manicmechanic said:

oh im not saying i want to make lsd. what im saying is i've read about ergot wine and ergot cold water extractions in the past and was wanting more details on it. if there is a proven safe tek out there or not.

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Da2ra said:

manicmechanic said:

oh im not saying i want to make lsd. what im saying is i've read about ergot wine and ergot cold water extractions in the past and was wanting more details on it. if there is a proven safe tek out there or not.

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I have the literature on just that topic and I've even found two experience reports for such. But I won't be able to respond until the end of the day. For the sake of accurate information, no one else make any responses in this thread until then.

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manicmechanic said:

oh im not saying i want to make lsd. what im saying is i've read about ergot wine and ergot cold water extractions in the past and was wanting more details on it. if there is a proven safe tek out there or not.

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Nemodeus said:

There is no safe preparation, the psychoactive compound is the one that kills.

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Da2ra said:

Nemodeus said:

There is no safe preparation, the psychoactive compound is the one that kills.

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No it's not. You base that on nothing other than an assumption and you know it, so why would you make that post. Who the hell are you. As I've conveyed in my previous two posts in this thread, I've been looking at literature on this topic and I intend to give a concise answer to OP's questions. The literature I'm looking at is pretty substantial. Ergot is not one thing, but rather differs in its alkaloidal makeup by its various forms. One form has an alkaloidal makeup identical or similar to MG seeds, which Hofmann refers to in regards to its ingestion as "direct, straight and pure." Once again, I'm going to make a bigger post on this, because I don't want to just post the literature without posting my commentary. And we don't need people like you spreading misinformation in this world. I presume you have evidence of someone trying, in isolated form, an alkaloid found in ergot that has been established to be capable of causing gangrene, and they experienced psychoactive effects?

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Nemodeus said:

Da2ra said:

I presume you have evidence of someone trying, in isolated form, an alkaloid found in ergot that has been established to be capable of causing gangrene, and they experienced psychoactive effects?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergometrine

Quote:

Possible side effects include nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea, headache, dizziness, tinnitus, chest pain, palpitation, bradycardia, transient hypertension and other cardiac arrhythmias, dyspnea, rashes, and shock.[4] An overdose produces a characteristic poisoning, ergotism or "St. Anthony's fire": prolonged vasospasm resulting in gangrene and amputations; hallucinations and dementia; and abortions. Gastrointestinal disturbances, e.g. diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, are common. The drug is contraindicated in pregnancy, vascular disease, and psychosis.

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I apologize for my hateful attitude.

Wikipedia is not a source. Only its sources are. Notice how the second sentence that speaks of ergotism is unsourced. Additionally the citation for the first sentence is nothing more than an India-based online shop and nothing in its overview of the drug is cited:



http://www.drugsupdate.com/generic/view/138


The Wikipedia article seems to be saying that the ergometrine is what causes ergotism -- and going by both your first and second post in this thread, you were relaying that statement. This claim is just ridiculous (and once again, it provides absolutely no evidence for this claim).


Eckart Eich, author of Solanaceae and Convolvulaceae: Secondary Metabolites: Biosynthesis, Chemotaxonomy, Biological and Economics Significance (a Handbook) (2008) (DOWNLOAD), a comprehensive book in part about morning glory plants (Convolvulaceae is latin for morning glory) provides evidence that it is ergovaline and perhaps other ergopeptines that cause the gangrene. Note: Morning glory seeds do not contain ergopeptines, but Eich speaks about ergot-infected grasses in one chapter of the book.

"...fescue toxicosis caused by D₂ agonistic activity of, e.g., ergovaline..." "...the powerful constrictor effect of ergovaline causing such gangrenes..."


Ergonovine is a lysergamide, as indicated by Eich, e.g. description of "Fig. 4.2" on page 216: "Ergometrine (syn.: ergonovine, ergobasine) is an example for simple lysergic acid amides."
Hofmann says ergonovine can be titled, lysergic acid propanolamide. Source: The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries. 1978. R. G. Wasson, Albert Hofmann, and Carl A. P. Ruck. Top of second column on page 9. Heretofore referred to as "The Road to Eleusis." (DOWNLOAD)

Eich says that ergovaline is the dominating alkaloid in ergot (towards the end of the first paragraph on page 248).

Eich indicates that there's a significant difference between the ergopeptines and the clavines & lysergamides (these are the three groups of ergoline-type alkaloids, by the way) (he refers to the latter two as "low molecular ergolines" here).

The low molecular ergolines are lacking the complex peptide moiety, which is apparently responsible for the persistence of the ergopeptines at the receptor molecules. (Top of 249)

The consistent observation of decreased serum prolactin levels in mammals receiving diet of infected tall fescue indicates the involvement of dopamine receptors in fescue toxicosis caused by D₂ agonistic activity of, e.g., ergovaline (Strickland et al. 1993, 1994).  Moreover, it has been concluded that the powerful constrictor effect of ergovaline causing such gangrenes is mediated by activation of vascular 5-HT_1B/1D and 5-HT_2A receptors (Schöning et al. 2001). A detailed review on physiological manifestations of endophyte toxicosis in ruminant and laboratory species has been published recently (Oliver 1997). (End of first paragraph on 250)

Strickland JR, Oliver JW, Cross DL (1993) Fescue toxicosis and its impact on animal agriculture. Vet Hum Tox 35:454-464

Strickland JR, Cross DL, Birrenkott GP, Grimes LW (1994) Effect of ergovaline, loline, and dopamine  antagonists on rat pituitary cell prolactin release in vitro. Am J Vet Res 55:716-721

Schöning C, Flieger M, Pertz HH (2001) Complex interaction of ergovaline with 5-HT2A, 5-HT1B/1D, and alpha1 receptors in isolated arteries of rat and guinea pig. J Animal Sci 79:2202-2209
DOWNLOAD

Oliver JW (1997) Physiological manifestations of endophyte toxicosis in ruminant and laboratory species. In: Bacon CW, Hill NS (eds) Neotyphodium/grass interactions. Plenum Press, New York, pp 311-345
DOWNLOAD

Isolated ergonovine has been tested by several people. The results of the experiments do not match up to the claims made by Wikipedia or drugsupdate.com.

Albert Hofmann's report:

I April 1976

12.20 h: 2.0 mg ergonovine hydrogenmaleinate, containing 1.5 mg ergonovine base, ingested in a glass of water.
13.00 h: slight nausea, same effect as I have experienced always in my LSD or psilocybin experiments. Tired, need to lie down. With eyes closed colored figures.
13.30 h: the trees in the nearby forest seem to live, their branches moving in a threatening way.
14.30 h: strong desire to dream, unable to do systematic work, with eyes closed or open afflicted by mollusk-like forms and feelings.
16.00 h: motives and colors have become clearer, but bearing still some hidden dangers.
17.00 h: after a short sleep I awoke by a kind of inner explosion of all the senses.
18.00 h: an unexpected visit forced me to become active, but during the whole evening I lived more in an inner than in the outer world.
22.00 h: all effects worn off, normal feeling.

This was an experiment performed without attention to “set and setting” but it proves that ergonovine possesses a psychotropic, mood-changing, slightly hallucinogenic activity when taken in the same amount as is an effective dose of lysergic acid amide, the main constituent of ololiuhqui. Its potency is about one twentieth of the potency of LSD and about five times that of psilocybin.

Source: The Road to Eleusis, p. 10


Ergonovine was also tested by three individuals who published an article entitled "Entheogenic Effects of Ergonovine" in The Journal of Psychedelic Drugs in 1979. The experimenters tested it three different times over the course of a month in increasingly high doses.

Jeremy Bigwood, Jonathan Ott, Catherine Thompson, Patricia Neely. Entheogenic Effects of Ergonovine. The Journal of Psychedelic Drugs, Vol. 11(1-2) Jan-Jun, 1979. Heretofore referred to as "Bigwood." (DOWNLOAD)

Initially, only one of the experimenters considered ergonovine to be "entheogenic,"

The experiment left us convinced that ergonovine was psychoactive, but only J.B. was persuaded that the drug was entheogenic.

In the second, higher dosed trial, they all experienced entheogenic effects.

Now it was clear to all of us that ergonovine was entheogenic.

Within 15 minutes rapid alterations of consciousness commenced with visual effects comparable to a threshold dose of LSD or psilocybin.

The effects were still quite intense six hours after ingestion. One of us experienced abundant eidetic imagery, rapidly-changing, colorful geometric patterns, undulating, never still. We all had a slight hangover the following morning.

The experimenters did, however, experience negative somatic effects:

Walking in this dreamy state was difficult due to leg cramps and slight incoordination. There was always a great desire to lie supine.

The mild entheogenic effects of ergonovine are similar to those of LSD. However, in dramatic contrast to LSD, the somatic effects of ergonovine greatly overshadow its psychic effects, so much so that we had no wish to ingest more than 10.0 mg,

This is also noteworthy:

Our experiments corroborate Hofmann's report that ergonovine possesses entheogenic properties. We found the active dose to lie between 5.0 and 10.0 mg, peroral. It is interesting to note that Hofmann experienced distinct entheogenic effects at 2.0 mg, while Wasson and Ruck did not. Similarly, J.B. experienced distinct entheogenic effects at 3.0 mg, whereas J.O. and P.N. did not. This underscores the importance of metabolic individuality in the uptake and metabolism of mind-altering drugs.

NOTE: Above, it mentions that Wasson and Ruck also tried ergonovine. It also mentions this earlier in the document, specifically saying that Ruck and Wasson tried ergonovine after Albert Hofmann did so. However, there's no mentioning of their ergonovine trials in The Road to Eleusis, so I guess they were never published. Carl Ruck is still alive. I should contact him about it.


Hofmann's self-experiment with ergonovine was part of his investigating the plausibility of using ergot as a psychedelic (specifically, as the substance that was used in Greece's Eleusinian Mysteries -- the kykeon).

We analyzed ergot of wheat and ergot of barley in our laboratory and they were found to contain basically the same alkaloids as ergot of rye, viz. alkaloids of the ergotamine and ergotoxine group, ergonovine, and sometimes also traces of lysergic acid amide. As I said before, ergonovine and lysergic acid amide, both psychoactive, are soluble in water whereas the other alkaloids are not.

The Road to Eleusis, p. 10, last paragraph

Also, I believe ergotoxine as a group is obsolete. Any chemicals in said group are classed as ergopeptines. Too lazy to cite that right now. :-)


As implied in the last sentence above, Hofmann's hypothesis was that through careful water-based extraction, one could yield an end product free of the highly toxic ergopeptine alkaloids.

So, there are other hypotheses that involve ergot's use as a psychoactive, but having not read 100% of the literature, I'm not ready to cover them yet. Once again, Hofmann points out that one variety of ergot contains no ergopeptines, so that alone means you can't just dismiss Krystle Cole's trip report as bullshit.* But there's one other hypothesis that involves actually converting the highly toxic ergopeptines to lysergic acid amide via simple chemistry! Not ready to cover that yet but I will.


*In the video, she says that Todd Skinner prepared it, and he definitely would've known about the ergopeptine-free ergot, as he was a drug geek -- goo bio on him: Subterranean Psychonaut: The Gordon Todd Skinner Story

Quote:

Overdosage/Toxicology

Symptoms of overdose include gangrene, seizures, chest pain, numbness in extremities, weak pulse, confusion, excitement, delirium, and hallucinations. Treatment is supportive based on symptomatology.

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