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Linear progression of events and time is an illusion
    #19426715 -

If time is an illusion, how do  scientists explain what appears to be a linear progression of events?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19426723 -

What linear progression of events?  Be specific.

Where did you get your premise that time is an illusion?  That is hippy nonsense.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #19428507 -

Time is an incredibly complex subject matter that even top scientists haven't pinned down an exact explanation regarding.

If you're reffering to the Einstein quote that time is an illusion, I believe that he was referencing the fact that it is relative and not an absolute as the previous Newton theory suggested. The idea of a distinct past, present and future is an illusion because it is relative to the individual or object. Travelling closer to the speed of light slows time for that individual in relation to another person who isn't travelling as fast and therefore it is not one distinct linear progression that we all follow.

If time was linear then it wouldn't be possible for an individual or object to experience time differently from one another and we would all experience exactly the same progression. Some theories suggest it's our movement through space that produces our experience of time progressing but seeing as speed is a variable then so to is what we would refer to as the passage of time.


To answer you question I would say:
We all share a similar experience of the of time as a progression linear events because we are all currently travelling at the same speed through space as we are limited by technology. As technology develops and we are able to travel at faster speeds we may be able to gather more data to verify this.

So technically time is an illusion but to comprehend it as such is very complex and possibly not appropriate for the average person as it adds additional complexity to the factors that we use to measure things.  The past, present and future explanation of time is a simplified model that works in general. In day to day life we can think of time as an absolute that can't vary and therefore past, present and future are a shared linear progression of events but when you scale things up then you would see that it isn't.

Edited by infected_2 (01/16/14 04:57 PM)

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie]
    #19432907 -

It seems to be a scientific idea not merely hippie stuff diecommie.

If you just look at these search results you get some wild stuff from theoretical physicists. I watched Fabric Of The Cosmos Illusion Of Time - Nova on youtube and several others. I'm confounded by it as to what even scientists think, and frankly the spirit channelers seem to explain the same topic of time being illusory better then these wise fools with their PhDs and ivy covered office towers. If I understand the scientists they've actually said "time is what keeps everything from happening all at once." So they think everything is what, always happening? In some weird way I'm both losing my virginity and getting dumped and getting married and being born all at once? It makes no sense to me but I have what seems to be the expereince of the passage of time so maybe time is just part of the dreamscape called reality and no more real than matter or anything else.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19437220 -

I dont think it is scientific.  At best it is sensationalist journalism and at worst its hippie nonsense.

Let me ask you - What, specifically, does time being an illusion change with respect to science?  What observation, measurement, postulate or conclusion changes if we consider time to be an illusion or not an illusion?  Please be specific.

Edited by DieCommie (01/18/14 12:45 PM)

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie]
    #19449514 -

Time is not linear.  Every moment exists at the same exact moment.

If you were born in the amazon and left from you parents at birth and you lived their your whole life without any outside contact at all.  You wouldn't have a clue as to what time is.  Most likely, you would be believe that this one moment is just.. Eternal. 

Again, time is not linear.  All that exists is this moment, and that's all that will ever exist, is this moment.  Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?

You might say.. Then why/how do we age?  Good question.  Aging is not due to time, ageing is a process of your chromosomes coming undone on the end of them, due to certain interactions/forces.  If you could stop that process that you would not age so therefore, you would "stop time".

You might say, well how do these chemicals/forces that cause aging get into your body with out moving through time.  Good question, because things move.  If you drop the thought of "Time", things become very different.

The universe is eternal as so is Time.  The universe will end and then restart along with time.  Which means the universe is timeless.

That's like saying..  Evolution is linear.  Well isn't it?  Not the way I see it.  We have these advanced physical bodies but we think so primitive?  Something don't add up to me.  If evolution is linear then we'd still remember how the pyramids were built.  That was our ancestors that built them and we can't even figure out how they did it?  Come on..  That right there, defines that evolution is NOT linear.

Drop the thought of "time" and "linear" :wink:


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Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!


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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: tripp23]
    #19450849 -

tripp23 said:
Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?



We are moving forward into a universe with a configuration of more entropy than the universe we are in now. 

All of your musings here are just philosophical equivocation and games.  Our highly accurate models of observations necessarily include time.  That is all it take for time to be a fundamental and integral part of our scientific body of knowledge.  Pretending like it doesn't exist will not yield you more accurate models of observations.  In fact, quite the opposite.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19451210 -

I've always assumed that time is a concept-of-use, but that it's non-existent, with the reality being that energy and matter simply continuously reorganize within a singular moment.

I assume that would mean that time-travel is non-existent, apart from making the universe's single existence wholly revert back to a set time - or maybe an experiencable perfectly-accurate version can be experienced through mental manifestation or something.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: something cool]
    #19451230 -

Dumbasses indeed..

Yes... that hippie-nonsense is a bunch of dellusions alright.. .. people should learn to behave and share their opinions respectfully. That is simply bad behavior.


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And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: Icyus]
    #19452846 -

So if there are multiple instances of everything, so that you can be in two places at once - one for where you are now and one for the person visiting you in the past, then why are you not aware of both and equally experiencing both at once? Obviously the two instances could not both be "you", otherwise there'd be no dominating instance that determined your central experience, and whatever would be having the role-of-experiencing for the other instances would be a separate identity to you - in consciousness and awareness - therefore, what the visitor was experiencing would not be a time-transfer, but an alternate-reality warp.

Time sounds like the dumbass hippy delight concept, because it takes a literal dumbass to not notice the rudimentary fallacy in it.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie]
    #19460707 -

DieCommie said:
What linear progression of events?  Be specific.

Where did you get your premise that time is an illusion?  That is hippybuddhist nonsensetruth.



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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: tripp23]
    #19460714 -

tripp23 said:
Time is not linear.  Every moment exists at the same exact moment.

If you were born in the amazon and left from you parents at birth and you lived their your whole life without any outside contact at all.  You wouldn't have a clue as to what time is.  Most likely, you would be believe that this one moment is just.. Eternal. 

Again, time is not linear.  All that exists is this moment, and that's all that will ever exist, is this moment.  Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?

You might say.. Then why/how do we age?  Good question.  Aging is not due to time, ageing is a process of your chromosomes coming undone on the end of them, due to certain interactions/forces.  If you could stop that process that you would not age so therefore, you would "stop time".

You might say, well how do these chemicals/forces that cause aging get into your body with out moving through time.  Good question, because things move.  If you drop the thought of "Time", things become very different.

The universe is eternal as so is Time.  The universe will end and then restart along with time.  Which means the universe is timeless.

That's like saying..  Evolution is linear.  Well isn't it?  Not the way I see it.  We have these advanced physical bodies but we think so primitive?  Something don't add up to me.  If evolution is linear then we'd still remember how the pyramids were built.  That was our ancestors that built them and we can't even figure out how they did it?  Come on..  That right there, defines that evolution is NOT linear.

Drop the thought of "time" and "linear" :wink:


truth. I'm glad one person on these boards gets it. The only time is now. the past and future are only thoughts


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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie]
    #19460717 -

DieCommie said:
tripp23 said:
Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?



We are moving forward into a universe with a configuration of more entropy than the universe we are in now. 

All of your musings here are just philosophical equivocation and games.  Our highly accurate models of observations necessarily include time.  That is all it take for time to be a fundamental and integral part of our scientific body of knowledge.  Pretending like it doesn't exist will not yield you more accurate models of observations.  In fact, quite the opposite.


Thats funny because Time being a factor in your models just means you are PRETENDING it does exist, for the sake of your models. The only thing that creates time is the beginning of measuring circumstances that once were and what might be later. Time only begins to be real when it is measured, and even then it's only us pretending that it's something. please show me WHERE time is?

you can't. It's not a physical thing. You might argue that it's REAL because we can think about it. But does that make it real or does that make it a figment of our imagination?


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Edited by berdinwall (01/23/14 03:49 AM)

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: berdinwall] * 1
    #19461420 -

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/17/16 12:27 AM)

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DieCommie]
    #19462890 -

DieCommie said:
tripp23 said:
Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?



We are moving forward into a universe with a configuration of more entropy than the universe we are in now. 

All of your musings here are just philosophical equivocation and games.  Our highly accurate models of observations necessarily include time.  That is all it take for time to be a fundamental and integral part of our scientific body of knowledge.  Pretending like it doesn't exist will not yield you more accurate models of observations.  In fact, quite the opposite.


Entropy only exists because we allow it too.  Consciousness creates the perception of time.  The fact is.. were to grounded on science.. When in reality, science can only explain so far as with time, consciousness, gravity, etc.  Recent science is basically breaking down at the core level of the universe. i.e. a particle is a wave and particle at the same time.  How can this be?!  Because science most likely wont be able to figure it out.

The very thought of time flat out boggles our minds, I don't care who you are.  Also, by saying that my thoughts are just philosophical equivocations must mean that yours are as well because nobody know what time really is at the core level.  You can present all the most complex math you want about time but you will still not have that answer as to what it truly is and where does it come from.

Nevertheless, science points more and more everyday to the fact that our whole universe might be a hologram.. If a particle turns into a wave while not under observation means that their must be an observer to make that wave go back into a particle inwhich.. your consciousness/perception is affecting matter itsself at the core level.  Assuming that we all know what E=MC2 means.. (All things are internally connected)  That most likely means that time would be the same way.  Internally connected to the observer in which our consciousness affects our "material" reality.


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Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!


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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19466720 -

I hope to one day understand, What is Time ?:-)

maybe science one day can answer me, so far relativity is the best model, time is an extra dimension there

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: lessismore]
    #19529573 -

I tend to think of the subjective perception of duration as a consequence of how the brain processes memory, and in this sense, as an illusion of sorts.  Whatever time "is," it is not anything like we think.  Whether it means anything to say that, outside of perception, time exists as an objective dimension, who knows?  We only have our perceptions to interpret it.

There is some new science to back this up.  Many physicists are now saying just this -- that time may be an illusion, inherently.

from the article:

n 1983 theorists Don Page and William Wootters suggested that quantum entanglement might provide a solution to the Wheeler-DeWitt "problem of time."  When quantum objects are entangled, measuring the properties of one changes those of the other. Mathematically, they showed that a clock entangled with the rest of the universe would appear to tick when viewed by an observer within that universe. But if a hypothetical observer existed outside the universe, when they looked in, everything would appear stationary.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19530568 -

Quote:
n 1983 theorists Don Page and William Wootters suggested that quantum entanglement might provide a solution to the Wheeler-DeWitt "problem of time."  When quantum objects are entangled, measuring the properties of one changes those of the other. Mathematically, they showed that a clock entangled with the rest of the universe would appear to tick when viewed by an observer within that universe. But if a hypothetical observer existed outside the universe, when they looked in, everything would appear stationary.



I always thought of that as well, that's really fascinating!  Another one I thought of as well is..

Since everything in the universe is in motion, i.e. our planet, our solar system, our galaxy and everything else is seperate speeds and directions.  What if we throw a spaceship in the vaccuum and completely cease it to move?  No motion what so ever.  Thing is.. we'll still have our molecular movements though.... I guess it might be pretty impossible to test.

It's confusing.. Time could be a product of motion.. who knows.  I mean, time does slow down getting closer to the speed of light :shrug:

Edit: See this is confusing because if we cease all movement.. What would it be relative too?  Idk.. hypothetically talking I guess. :confused:


--------------------
Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!


Edited by tripp23 (02/06/14 03:24 PM)

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: tripp23]
    #19537637 -

tripp23 said:
Time is not linear.  Every moment exists at the same exact moment.

If you were born in the amazon and left from you parents at birth and you lived their your whole life without any outside contact at all.  You wouldn't have a clue as to what time is.  Most likely, you would be believe that this one moment is just.. Eternal. 

Again, time is not linear.  All that exists is this moment, and that's all that will ever exist, is this moment.  Your not moving back in time or forward.  If you were.  What would you be moving forward too?

You might say.. Then why/how do we age?  Good question.  Aging is not due to time, ageing is a process of your chromosomes coming undone on the end of them, due to certain interactions/forces.  If you could stop that process that you would not age so therefore, you would "stop time".

You might say, well how do these chemicals/forces that cause aging get into your body with out moving through time.  Good question, because things move.  If you drop the thought of "Time", things become very different.

The universe is eternal as so is Time.  The universe will end and then restart along with time.  Which means the universe is timeless.

That's like saying..  Evolution is linear.  Well isn't it?  Not the way I see it.  We have these advanced physical bodies but we think so primitive?  Something don't add up to me.  If evolution is linear then we'd still remember how the pyramids were built.  That was our ancestors that built them and we can't even figure out how they did it?  Come on..  That right there, defines that evolution is NOT linear.

Drop the thought of "time" and "linear" :wink:


This is exactly spot on.

EVERY moment that we are living in is the PRESENT moment. There is no past, there is no future, there is ONLY the PRESENT moment. Every millisecond of time is the PRESENT moment.

This is very buddhist thinking. People should strive to live more in the present. People dwell too much on the past, people think too hard about what is to come in the future, but if we all were at peace with the present moment, a lot of anxiety would be relieved. Do you ever hear people say, "What happened in the past is the past, all I can do is forgive and forget..." or something to that extent? Or, have you ever heard someone say, "I don't know what is to come in the future, but all I can do is be hopeful."

I mean, think of this: When you are on psychedelics, be it shrooms, acid, dmt, etc, time is almost nonexistent. A minute may feel like HOURS, or even millenia. Don't you think that psychedelics help get people in touch with the TRUE meaning of the universe? That everything is time-less, meaningless...that everything is just the way it just because...no reason...just because.   

This is quite an interesting thread.

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Re: Linear progression of events and time is an illusion [Re: occollegeboi]
    #19538529 -

be here now... right now
not tomorrow, not when you get time
Now

time is a thought
no thoughts, no time

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