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InvisibleSilversoul
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Black holes 'do not exist'
    #4103830 - 04/27/05 07:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

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Black holes 'do not exist'

Philip Ball

Black holes are staples of science fiction and many think astronomers have observed them indirectly. But according to a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, these awesome breaches in space-time do not and indeed cannot exist.

Over the past few years, observations of the motions of galaxies have shown that some 70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

George Chapline thinks that the collapse of the massive stars, which was long believed to generate black holes, actually leads to the formation of stars that contain dark energy. "It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist," he claims.

Black holes are one of the most celebrated predictions of Einstein's general theory of relativity, which explains gravity as the warping of space-time caused by massive objects. The theory suggests that a sufficiently massive star, when it dies, will collapse under its own gravity to a single point.

But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues. "Unfortunately", he adds, "he couldn't articulate why." At the root of the problem is the other revolutionary theory of twentieth-century physics, which Einstein also helped to formulate: quantum mechanics.

In general relativity, there is no such thing as a 'universal time' that makes clocks tick at the same rate everywhere. Instead, gravity makes clocks run at different rates in different places. But quantum mechanics, which describes physical phenomena at infinitesimally small scales, is meaningful only if time is universal; if not, its equations make no sense.

This problem is particularly pressing at the boundary, or event horizon, of a black hole. To a far-off observer, time seems to stand still here. A spacecraft falling into a black hole would seem, to someone watching it from afar, to be stuck forever at the event horizon, although the astronauts in the spacecraft would feel as if they were continuing to fall. "General relativity predicts that nothing happens at the event horizon," says Chapline.

Quantum transitions

However, as long ago as 1975 quantum physicists argued that strange things do happen at an event horizon: matter governed by quantum laws becomes hypersensitive to slight disturbances. "The result was quickly forgotten," says Chapline, "because it didn't agree with the prediction of general relativity. But actually, it was absolutely correct."

This strange behaviour, he says, is the signature of a 'quantum phase transition' of space-time. Chapline argues that a star doesn't simply collapse to form a black hole; instead, the space-time inside it becomes filled with dark energy and this has some intriguing gravitational effects.

Outside the 'surface' of a dark-energy star, it behaves much like a black hole, producing a strong gravitational tug. But inside, the 'negative' gravity of dark energy may cause matter to bounce back out again.

If the dark-energy star is big enough, Chapline predicts, any electrons bounced out will have been converted to positrons, which then annihilate other electrons in a burst of high-energy radiation. Chapline says that this could explain the radiation observed from the centre of our galaxy, previously interpreted as the signature of a huge black hole.

He also thinks that the Universe could be filled with 'primordial' dark-energy stars. These are formed not by stellar collapse but by fluctuations of space-time itself, like blobs of liquid condensing spontaneously out of a cooling gas. These, he suggests, could be stuff that has the same gravitational effect as normal matter, but cannot be seen: the elusive substance known as dark matter.


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Edited by Paradigm (04/28/05 12:41 AM)


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OfflineSaladin
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Silversoul]
    #4104352 - 04/27/05 09:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Kind of like relativity, its all propaganda


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Saladin]
    #4104475 - 04/27/05 10:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Saladin said:
Kind of like relativity, its all propaganda




No, thats not it at all.

The key to understanding these debates is in understanding positivist philosophical theory. You need to understand that people like Einstein and Hawking are positivist theorists, meaning they produce theories that explain phenomena but they often falter when put to the extreme test. Many mathematicians have taken advantage of this by deducing wormhole theories and even black-hole theories from existing physical hypotheses without recognizing the fact that these are positivist hypotheses.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Catalysis]
    #4105069 - 04/28/05 12:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Einstein's theories have held up pretty well under some rather extreme tests....from the data released from Gravity Probe B, his hypothesis concerning the ability of large objects to warp space time seem to be justified....


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He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #4105471 - 04/28/05 01:50 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Einstein's theories have held up pretty well under some rather extreme tests....from the data released from Gravity Probe B, his hypothesis concerning the ability of large objects to warp space time seem to be justified....



But haven't quantum mechanics also held up pretty well? I think the gist of this article is that black holes are incompatible with quantum mechanics.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Silversoul]
    #4105573 - 04/28/05 02:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting article, I don't know what to think. If that mechanism of outside it behaves like a black hole but once a particle was inside would that accomidate for the predominance of dark matter in the universe? I was under the impression that the universe was actually mainly consistant of dark energy. Such as when it shoots out a dark particle it has a chance to avoid normal matter, however normal matter has no chance of avoiding the black hole.

Heres something you may find interesting, it somewhat has to do with black holes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4357613.stm


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: relativexistance]
    #4105620 - 04/28/05 02:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

relativexistance said:
Heres something you may find interesting, it somewhat has to do with black holes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4357613.stm



What's even more interesting is I posted that same article here before. But this new article has me thinking. Is there any way we could tell a black hole from a dark-energy star?


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Silversoul]
    #4106836 - 04/28/05 02:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

lol thats where i had read that article from. I don't know about telling the difference between the two i only have basic knowledge in modern physics. Good articles though :thumbup: :thumbup:.


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InvisibleDas Meow
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: relativexistance]
    #4106936 - 04/28/05 02:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

.


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Edited by Das Meow (03/28/08 03:16 PM)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Silversoul]
    #4109935 - 04/29/05 06:32 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It seems like both relativity and QM have held up rather well in certain realms. Within those realms, both theories can make predictions beyond the accuracy of any existing measuring equipment. This wouldn't be the first time their predictions have clashed though--physicists have been looking for a way to quantize gravity for decades without success. That's where all this supersymmetry and string theory stuff is supposed to be taking us....


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Silversoul]
    #4110358 - 04/29/05 11:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

But haven't quantum mechanics also held up pretty well?

There has never been a single observation or experimental result that contradicted QM. Not one. :shrug:


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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemycophyle
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Diploid]
    #4114780 - 04/30/05 03:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
There has never been a single observation or experimental result that contradicted QM. Not one. :shrug:




Gravity?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Diploid]
    #4122207 - 05/02/05 06:47 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

> There has never been a single observation or experimental result that contradicted QM.

I don't mean to be rude, but that is a nonsensical statement. Quantum mechanics is a field of research, not a thing or a single theory. Off the top of my head, the lifetime of a muon as measured experimentally on earth contridicts the maximum possible lifetime of a muon. (Of course, relativity can expain this contradiction, but QM itself cannot.)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Seuss]
    #4132380 - 05/04/05 01:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Although there is such a beast as relativistic quantum mechanics.

[Edit: Which basically renders your comments regarding the basic, stripped-down version of QM meaningless.]


Edited by ChuangTzu (05/04/05 02:10 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4132430 - 05/04/05 02:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

> Although there is such a beast as relativistic quantum mecahnics.

Correct, and in the example I provided, relativity explains the difference in lifetimes. To the muon, traveling near the speed of light, it's lifetime is what it should be... but to us, traveling much slower than the speed of light, with respect to the muon, see the muon as living much longer than it should.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Black holes 'do not exist' [Re: Seuss]
    #4132452 - 05/04/05 02:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

This is incorporated into relativistic quantum mechanics, so it doesn't really contradict it at all. I don't follow....


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