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Re: libertarianism [Re: Autonomous]
    #1932738 -

But at what point would you draw the line tho? We all know that if a corporation is allowed to run it's factories like Auschwitz then it's gonna make a profit.

Is there some point where you say "No, we cannot allow people to be treated in this way"? Or do you just allow the "race to the bottom" to proceed until we all work in equivalent conditions to Auschwitz?

How do you prevent this happening with no government control on wages, a decent welfare system etc?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1932761 -

Quote:
For example, on International Women's Day in 1997 fifty six women working at a Nike factory in Vietnam were forced to run around the site in the hot sun as punishment for failing to wear regulation shoes.


This is horrible, but in fact it's not the worst thing that has happened to workers in Ho Chi Minh's proletariat-governed paradise.

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1932762 -

Alex123 said:
But at what point would you draw the line tho? We all know that if a corporation is allowed to run it's factories like Auschwitz then it's gonna make a profit.


How can you logically compare someone freely deciding to work for someone with working in Auschwitz? Answer, YOU CAN'T.

Quote:
Or do you just allow the "race to the bottom" to proceed until we all work in equivalent conditions to Auschwitz?


Try to be a little less hysterical. Again, it is irrational to compare someone freely working for an employer to working in Auschwitz.

Could the workers at Auschwitz go home at the end of the day? Could they refuse to show up for work? Did they get paid?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Autonomous]
    #1932778 -

That's not really the point is it. The point is at what degree of exploitation do you draw the line. Reading about the conditions in western corporate backed "enterprise zones" is very reminiscent of Auschwitz. Working in horrendous conditions, beaten for the slightest thing etc.

Do you believe workers have any right to protection from these abuses whatsoever? Or do you think that as long as there's someone desperate enough to do it, you're perfectly justified in treating them like human garbage?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1932976 -

Nope. Another libertarian myth I'm afraid.

it's not a myth, and it's recognized by economists across the board.

now... about all this "wage-slave" garbage. tell me... if the company "exploiting" these people did not exist would they be better off?

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1933018 -

Alex123 said:
That's not really the point is it.


The point is that your examples do not apply. First of all, the conditions you describe are not in countries operating under a libertarian political system so using these examples as an argument against libertarianism is not warranted. Secondly, the comparison with Auschwitz is hysterical and hardly accurate.

Quote:
Reading about the conditions in western corporate backed "enterprise zones" is very reminiscent of Auschwitz.


I suggest you do a little more studying of history. Drawing unsupportable parallels between these two situations in an attempt to discredit an entirely different third situation is no way to make a valid point.

Quote:
... beaten for the slightest thing etc.


Beatings of workers would not be allowed under a libertarian political system. You fail to recognize that this is initiation of force and is in direct contradiction to libertarian principles.

If you are going to argue against libertarianism, it would help that you argue against it and not some statist system that violates libertarian principles.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Autonomous]
    #1933031 -

i wouldn't count on it. alex is rather notorious 'round these parts for his straw man building.

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Phred]
    #1933097 -

I thought that term might have been a problem, I wont use it anymore, what I meant by wage slavery is a situation where there are generally horrible contiotions, where that person is paid barley enough or less than enough to take care of thier everyday needs, like food and shelter.


"Another bizarre theory associated with lack of minimum wage laws is that it inevitably leads to a 'race to the bottom'..."

I never said enevitably, but it is definatley possible. As for your evedence, it is rediculous to compare what exists our economy to what might exist if our economy was suddenly liberatarianst. There is a pretty notacable difference.

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Autonomous]
    #1933193 -

"Beatings of workers would not be allowed under a libertarian political system. You fail to recognize that this is initiation of force and is in direct contradiction to libertarian principles."

What about low wages? What about not providing workers with decent benefits?

What about monopolies? If you don't have restrictions on how large a company can grow, and how much it can control, what's to prevent it from replacing the government as a controlling force, and one that is run totally privately instead of by people who are elected by the public?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Phluck]
    #1933287 -

A huge beucracy might as well be the government.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Autonomous]
    #1934211 -

First of all, the conditions you describe are not in countries operating under a libertarian political system so using these examples as an argument against libertarianism is not warranted

So what exactly would prevent a corporation behaving in exactly the same manner in a "libertarian" political system?

Secondly, the comparison with Auschwitz is hysterical and hardly accurate.

Nothing hysterical about it auto. Terrorising your workforce and making them work in horrendous conditions. You believe this didn't exist in Auschwitz? It's only to a matter of degree isn't it. With no government protection what would stop the corporations doing whatever they wanted? The cops?

Beatings of workers would not be allowed under a libertarian political system

I keep hearing this nonsense and no explanation of how. Could you explain HOW it would be stopped? By passing a law? You believe a 14 year old girl who lives in a shack and earns 10 cents an hour is going to go to the police and say "That billion dollar corporation beat me, please arrest them and send them all to jail"? I'm sorry but you're living in a dream world.

it would help that you argue against it and not some statist system that violates libertarian principles.

Once again, could you explain how when you take away any government protection whatsoever (which is what exists already in most of these third world countries to be honest) how you control the behaviour of corporations? Do you think if you pass a law saying "You cannot beat your workforce" everyone would obey it? Do you think it just might be possible for a billion dollar corporation to spray a few million at the head of police and get away with things? Or don't you think that is possible in a "libertarian" system?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1934816 -

If companies didnt take obscene profits for those at the top and distributed the profits fairly amongst the entire workforce then it would have a better chance of of easing poverty than if we continue in the current vein. Im talking about an attitude here anyway. Perhaps your heart chakra needs a little work before you are going to understand what Im talking about.

Quote:
this has gotten to the point of straw-grasping. your above statement is empty liberal buzzphrasing. it's a vague, untestable prediction with no foundation in economic theory.




What you mean sort of like "as long as your actions do not, by way of force, impede on the actions of another person, you are to be free to act as you wish, without interference by force.

the only role of government (legally recognized force) is to enforce this principle."



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Always Smi2le

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Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1935198 -

If companies didnt take obscene profits for those at the top and distributed the profits fairly amongst the entire workforce then it would have a better chance of of easing poverty than if we continue in the current vein.

if the companies did not exist would the people be better off than they are now?

Im talking about an attitude here anyway. Perhaps your heart chakra needs a little work before you are going to understand what Im talking about.

ah... finally you admit that your position is based not on reason, but emotion. are we getting into my personal life? if you really want to go there, i could entertain a few questions about the very numerous voluntary charity and public service projects i have voluntarily volunteered for...

this has gotten to the point of straw-grasping. your above statement is empty liberal buzzphrasing. it's a vague, untestable prediction with no foundation in economic theory.

What you mean sort of like "as long as your actions do not, by way of force, impede on the actions of another person, you are to be free to act as you wish, without interference by force.

the only role of government (legally recognized force) is to enforce this principle."

this statement is neither vague, nor an unpredictable prediction. it's a concise assessment on the nature of liberty and the role of government. try reading a little john locke, john stuart mill, or adam smith. if there is contradiction or fallacy in this view of liberty and government, i welcome you to expose it.

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1935226 -

So what exactly would prevent a corporation behaving in exactly the same manner in a "libertarian" political system?

cops and courts.

Nothing hysterical about it auto. Terrorising your workforce and making them work in horrendous conditions. You believe this didn't exist in Auschwitz? It's only to a matter of degree isn't it. With no government protection what would stop the corporations doing whatever they wanted? The cops?

are there gas chambers in these factories we're talking about? are people not permitted to leave?

"making them work in horrendous conditions"?

by "making", you mean force, right?

"terrorizing your workforce"?

you mean through fear of violent action against them?

... yes, alex, the cops.

I keep hearing this nonsense and no explanation of how. Could you explain HOW it would be stopped? By passing a law? You believe a 14 year old girl who lives in a shack and earns 10 cents an hour is going to go to the police and say "That billion dollar corporation beat me, please arrest them and send them all to jail"? I'm sorry but you're living in a dream world.

there are peaceful negotiations over wages and working conditions all the time. if beating your employees when they ask for a raise is just soo easy, why isn't everybody doing it?

Once again, could you explain how when you take away any government protection whatsoever (which is what exists already in most of these third world countries to be honest) how you control the behaviour of corporations?

we aren't talking about removing governmental protection. we're talking about removing everything EXCEPT protection, which is enforced absolutely, by an objective government with NO TIES to the businesses.

these countries you're talking about are run by corrupt politicians who are in bed with the large corporations. their police forces are puny and corrupt. they are nothing even remotely close to what a libertarian society would look like. they're quite the opposite.

how many times are you going to kill this straw man before you attack the flesh and bones argument?

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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1935292 -

*clap, clap, clap*

Well done.

pinky


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Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1935318 -

GazzBut writes:

If companies didnt take obscene profits for those at the top and distributed the profits fairly amongst the entire workforce then it would have a better chance of of easing poverty than if we continue in the current vein.

"Obscene" profits? I'm curious -- what is it you do for a living?

Have you ever taken the time to read a few annual corporate reports? There are very, VERY few corporations with a profit margin higher than ten per cent of revenue, and many, MANY highly successful ones with margins less than half that.

Note that in most manufacturing corporations, the typical ratio is roughly 30% cost of materials, 30% wages and benefits cost, and 30% taxes, plant infrastructure expenses, interest on loans, advertising, cost of compliance with government regulations, shipping expenses, etc., etc. If you are doing well -- EXTREMELY well -- in a given year there might be as much as 10% left over for reinvestment, expansion, and shareholder dividends. Of course, it is entirely possible that there is no profit at all, or even a loss, for several years at a stretch. Note that the employees get paid whether there is a profit or a loss.

And this is in corporations which manufacture things. In the case of corporations operating in the service industry, wages and benefits may exceed 70% of annual revenue.

pinky


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Re: libertarianism [Re: Phred]
    #1935495 -

Quote:
Note that in most manufacturing corporations, the typical ratio is roughly 30% cost of materials, 30% wages and benefits cost, and 30% taxes, plant infrastructure expenses, interest on loans, advertising, cost of compliance with government regulations, shipping expenses, etc., etc.



The heads of most corporations tend to grant themselves obscene salaries which obviously make the company figures a little less inspiring.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1935508 -

Quote:
this statement is neither vague, nor an unpredictable prediction. it's a concise assessment on the nature of liberty and the role of government. try reading a little john locke, john stuart mill, or adam smith. if there is contradiction or fallacy in this view of liberty and government, i welcome you to expose it.




Ok I will! You said: "as long as your actions do not, by way of force, impede on the actions of another person"

If force were the only way to impede on the actions of another person you might not have a problem. But sadly this is not the case. You dont have to initiate force to negatively impede another. Who then decides what is to be considered impeding and what is not?

Quote:
try reading a little john locke, john stuart mill, or adam smith.



How do you know I havent? Perhaps I dont agree with everything they have to say? Perhaps I think they spoke well for their time but we that now live in a world so radically diferent to the one they inhabited as to make their ideas dated and not entirely useful?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1935544 -

If force were the only way to impede on the actions of another person you might not have a problem.

force or fraud is the only way to get someone to do something that they don't voluntarily consent to. the only way you can annul another individual's free will is through coercion.

How do you know I havent?

when i stated an observation once espoused by these gentlemen, you said the idea had no ground in economic theory.

Perhaps I think they spoke well for their time but we that now live in a world so radically diferent to the one they inhabited as to make their ideas dated and not entirely useful?

hardly an adequate refutation.

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Re: libertarianism [Re: Phluck]
    #1935605 -

Phluck writes:

What about low wages?

What about them?

What about not providing workers with decent benefits?

Same question.

What about monopolies?

What about them? What's bad about a noncoercive monopoly? Who is harmed by a company which provides such great products in such abundance at such low prices that no one else can do any better? Is this not a good thing?

If you don't have restrictions on how large a company can grow...

Presuming for the sake of argument that a "large" company is intrinsically a bad thing, how large should it be allowed to grow? Who decides when that point is reached?

... and how much it can control ...

What do you mean, "control"? All companies do is buy stuff and sell stuff. They don't throw you in jail for smoking dope.

... what's to prevent it from replacing the government as a controlling force...

The fact that companies may not own police, courts, and armies.

... and one that is run totally privately instead of by people who are elected by the public?

See above.

pinky


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