underfliptown said:

Monsanto is fucking evil, reasons:

-Terminator gene
-Indian suicides
-Crop dusting inoculation of patented substrains
-General douchebaggery

---

DeadHearts said:

The problem is not simply with GMOs alone but the Corporations like Monsanto. How can you put a fucking patent on nature whether its modified by you or not? And being allowed to squash your
competition into the ground unjustly on top of it.

Nasty Nasty stuff when your gov endorses this shit.

---

Senor_Doobie said:

Ah Joie, I really hope you have signed up for a critical thinking class next fall, assuming such classes are still offered in modern institutionalized education facilities.

In the meantime, here's today's free lesson.  Calling the kind of genetic modifications that accompany millions of years of evolution to those that occur over several years in a for-profit laboratory is so mind-bogglingly ignorant it is almost beyond words.

And no Joie, just like when I called you out on your ad honimem recently, just because you genuinely believe it, doesn't mean you aren't perpetuating an argumentative fallacy.

---

Please do point out my fallacy then, rather than linking to some wikipedia article you think supports your argument.

Why don't you take a class in evolution, genetics, molecular biology, genetic engineering, biotechnology or synthetic biology and then come back to me and maybe you'll be qualified to understand what we're talking about. A critical thinking class doesn't tell you ANYTHING about biological principles of life, how evolution works or how synthetic biology works.

Genetic modification is a natural process that cells do on their own. Evolution is a process of trial and error. There is no thought behind it, no intelligence, no predictions, no modification of process based upon collected data. Saying that intelligent beings spending years researching the same process and implementing it on their own with the guidance of intelligence and multiple perspectives is somehow worse than a natural process dictated by chaos and chemical reactions is ridiculous and fallacious.

tymoteusz3 said:

Senor_Doobie said:

In the meantime, here's today's free lesson.  Calling the kind of genetic modifications that accompany millions of years of evolution to those that occur over several years in a for-profit laboratory is so mind-bogglingly ignorant it is almost beyond words.

---

Instead of acting condescending, why don't you point out exactly why it is so mind-bogglingly ignorant?
(And don't link to some nutter site please).

---

FooMan said:

I've got to side with Senor Doobie on this. You don't need more than basic common sense to realize that humans fucking with processes that nature has taken millions of years to accomplish can and likely will end badly in ways we can't even imagine. I'm sorry if FDA/EPA approval after a couple of years of research isn't convincing me differently.

---

Like computing? Like modern medicine? Yeah, the random chaos of nature always does things much better than a group of highly organized and cognitive organisms working together with years of accumulated knowledge and technological feats at their disposal.

I hate the hippie "nature does it best" nonsense. We are nature. Nature itself as a whole tends towards entropy which means chaos and disorder which means that generally life does things better than nature as a whole because life organizes things and puts them to work for a greater good.

You do need much more than "common sense" because you don't even realize we're just speeding up a completely natural and safe process. There's no such thing as "common sense," or some inherited sense of knowledge anyway there's just an individualized sense that is incredibly biased by your own subjective experiences and assumptions. Knowledge and education allow you to understand commonly accepted things and really have a more common, objective sense and understanding of hot button issues like this.

If you don't even know anything about the natural processes you're trying to talk about, so how can you begin to claim that nature does it better?

JoieDeVivre said:

If you don't even know anything about the natural processes you're trying to talk about, so how can you begin to claim that nature does it better?

---

I forget, you and all of these "intelligent" beings have the  natural processes that created you, our earth and our universe all figured out. We've only known that DNA even existed for about 100 years of the millions of years this planet has been around so we must have it all figured out already

JoieDeVivre said:

Quote:

Let's ignore the trolls and flames and actually start a discussion here...

---

Trolling is when you make a claim and refuse to intelligently discuss it.

---

FooMan said:

JoieDeVivre said:

If you don't even know anything about the natural processes you're trying to talk about, so how can you begin to claim that nature does it better?

---

I forget, you and all of these "intelligent" beings have the  natural processes that created you, our earth and our universe all figured out. We've only known that DNA even existed for about 100 years of the millions of years this planet has been around so we must have it all figured out already

---

What specifically do you think we don't have figured out? Do you know all that we do have figured out?

I'm not even suggesting we know everything but nature as a whole doesn't know anything at all. Cognitive control of a process seems to be intuitively better when compared to the same process controlled by random chemical interactions. I mean, theoretically with our knowledge, control, regulation and technology involved we can avoid mutations that we don't want entirely. Evolution has no intelligent control like that and can easily mutate things harmfully. Evolution does no research before it changes genetic code, but we do exactly that. I don't think you realize just how much we can know about any given genome, down to the alternate splicing mechanisms of the organism and the exact shape and function of the protein produced and the individual amino acids that will turn over into later in the cell and all the effects those will have on the homeostatic balance of the cell.

So I just got out of the doctors office... and was there since 8 p.m. last night

Glad to see some discussion.

I don't think we should let a firm backed by the government fuck with our food and not tell us about it or give us a choice in that say.

Why would you trust a huge corporation like Monsanto and our government?

This could end really badly... like everything else our government has "backed" over the years...

FooMan said:

tymoteusz3 said:

Senor_Doobie said:

In the meantime, here's today's free lesson.  Calling the kind of genetic modifications that accompany millions of years of evolution to those that occur over several years in a for-profit laboratory is so mind-bogglingly ignorant it is almost beyond words.

---

Instead of acting condescending, why don't you point out exactly why it is so mind-bogglingly ignorant?
(And don't link to some nutter site please).

---

I've got to side with Senor Doobie on this. You don't need more than basic common sense to realize that humans fucking with processes that nature has taken millions of years to accomplish can and likely will end badly in ways we can't even imagine. I'm sorry if FDA/EPA approval after a couple of years of research isn't convincing me differently.

---

FooMan said:

JoieDeVivre said:

If you don't even know anything about the natural processes you're trying to talk about, so how can you begin to claim that nature does it better?

---

I forget, you and all of these "intelligent" beings have the  natural processes that created you, our earth and our universe all figured out. We've only known that DNA even existed for about 100 years of the millions of years this planet has been around so we must have it all figured out already

---

Az0th said:

Down with Monsanto forever

---

omegafaust said:

Altering the genes of one species by adding genes from an entirely different species is not always something that will happen in nature.  They are bridging gaps that are seperated for a reason  we

---

Quote:

do not know the full effects of gmo's, so why claim they are harmless. 

---

Quote:

Has anyone here heard of their correlation with "leaky gut" and how gmos can effect the bacteria in oir stomachs?  a

---

Quote:

And at whoever said organic farming is unsustainable, you must be a fool.  Otherwise, with your logic, the human species would not have survived for thousands of years before we started modifying genes and using pesticides.

---