imachavel said:

Have you ever heard the term, a product sale is 5% the product value and 95% the value of the person selling it? Now once again, do you think a business should be run by an un skilled normal about average person? One that facing extreme over head of a lease and whole sale buying and licenses and other fees should be put out of business by tacking on maybe a few thousand or few thousand more then few thousand extra a year? How about property tax rates, how about large corporate industrial whole sale costs? How about businesses that used to buy things for $1 and sell for $2 now buying for $4.50 and selling for $5?

---

Shins said:

imachavel said:

Have you ever heard the term, a product sale is 5% the product value and 95% the value of the person selling it? Now once again, do you think a business should be run by an un skilled normal about average person? One that facing extreme over head of a lease and whole sale buying and licenses and other fees should be put out of business by tacking on maybe a few thousand or few thousand more then few thousand extra a year? How about property tax rates, how about large corporate industrial whole sale costs? How about businesses that used to buy things for $1 and sell for $2 now buying for $4.50 and selling for $5?

---

what do sales have to do with anything?

---

I'm arguing with you that a person simply can't pay a shit rate of $9.50 an hour because it will raise an over head so high he will no longer profit. Then you say "what do sales have to do with anything?"

Do you understand what volume is? Do you understand $100 once is nothing compared to $.75 cents 1000 times? And you have the nerve to ask "what do sales have to do with anything"?

Do you actually understand economics and daily changes in supply and demand? Or did you just read a stupid college book and and think you know everything from a dumb college lecture? I'm going to ask you one more time, does a person who owns a business need to be skilled in the art of balancing costs of bringing in volumes of sales? I was under the impression only qualified people got loans. And those who "inherit" money should maybe not dump cash into projects they can't handle.

I find it insulting to think this country is the greatest economy in the world, and yet a wage raise from $7.50 to $9.50 will bankrupt the larger percentage of businesses. What do you actually know about sales and running a business besides taking economics 101? $9.50 an hour will drive all but the most skilled employees out of the work force? Do you even realize what $100 a day is anymore?

You sound like Zappa.... except that Zappa is about 20x more educated then you, and aside from this subject, disagrees with most of your points

imachavel said:

You are getting your foot in the door by accepting your first $7 an hour job?

---

badchad said:

imachavel said:

You are getting your foot in the door by accepting your first $7 an hour job?

---

Everybody starts somewhere.  I got my foot in the door with a minimum wage job.

Raises minimum wage raises overhead.  It can discourage hiring and be the difference between profit and failure.  It can cost a mid-size business millions over a ten year period.  That's not a trivial amount.

---

ganjfather said:

IDK how all of it ties together completely, it just makes sense to me that if a business has to pay their employees more, they would raise their prices to even things out Or maybe pay less to their employees receiving above-minimum wage.


Also, is the federal rate even mandatory? I'm looking at a map of state wages and there are 5 states with minimum wage rates lower than the federal level.

---

imachavel said:

anyone going to cry about it? About the big corporations over head?

Of course I understand people's concerns with smallest business lacking the ability to pay over head. But with no consumer confidence those business go broke anyway. What is a business that sells pencils for $1 and sells 10,000 a day making .50 cents on each pencil and pays $9 an hour compared to a business that sells pencils and sells 1000 a day and makes .50 cents on each pencil and pays $7 an hour?

Confidence is the #1 reason a consumer spends money. $1 more shouldn't hurt much.. 10 employees less per business... obviously will

---

Cerealbox said:

Let's face it, if you would be making $4.00 an hour without minimum wage laws, you're not all of a sudden gonna be making 15 bucks an hour because you state says that's what your wage has to be.

---

Prisoner#1 said:

Cerealbox said:

Let's face it, if you would be making $4.00 an hour without minimum wage laws, you're not all of a sudden gonna be making 15 bucks an hour because you state says that's what your wage has to be.

---

if the state sets a minimum wage rate then the minimum wage in that state is the rate set by the state


none of what you said makes any sense

---

ganjfather said:

IDK how all of it ties together completely, it just makes sense to me that if a business has to pay their employees more, they would raise their prices to even things out Or maybe pay less to their employees receiving above-minimum wage.


Also, is the federal rate even mandatory? I'm looking at a map of state wages and there are 5 states with minimum wage rates lower than the federal level.

---

Prisoner#1 said:

imachavel said:

anyone going to cry about it? About the big corporations over head?

Of course I understand people's concerns with smallest business lacking the ability to pay over head. But with no consumer confidence those business go broke anyway. What is a business that sells pencils for $1 and sells 10,000 a day making .50 cents on each pencil and pays $9 an hour compared to a business that sells pencils and sells 1000 a day and makes .50 cents on each pencil and pays $7 an hour?

Confidence is the #1 reason a consumer spends money. $1 more shouldn't hurt much.. 10 employees less per business... obviously will

---

now the pencil costs 75 cents to make and the price of pencils goes up to
$1.50, you get pissed because there;s no way you're spending that much for
a pencil so you resort to pens, that;s wonderful becausue the pen factory can
put on an extra shift to keep up with demand but the pencil factory is now
out of business because no one is buying pencils, the extra shift at the
pencil factory is only 25 people while the pencil factory was a work crew of
100 in addition to the office staff, luck us, we just cut 100 jobs in the US
while the chinese pen factory is not selling more pens at $1 each but only
paying the employees 3 cents

you have no real concept of how a business runs do you

a local factory here pays an average of $40k/yr to employees, most have been
there for 10 years, some as long as 30 are making around $90k, they all get
bonuses and benefits, office staff can earn as much as $150k of they earn
commissions which sounds like it's all just money in the pocket, now the
company may do $100 million in business every year, they also have 750
employees to pay, their annual payroll is $50 million, they pay out on
electricity is almost 20 million, the materials take another $40 million and
since they cant reuse the waste to keep making products they pay to have that
hauled off, then of course there's maintenance for the machinery, something
they have another $100 million tied up in, then the building, the taxes, the
stock holders, etc... profit margins arent like you believe them to be,
companies may earn 3% of their total revenues and while that sounds like a
lot when you're talking about hundreds of millions, you quickly discover that
much of that goes into trying to grow the business


why dont you drop a few million in tooling ant start putting people to work

---

Prisoner#1 said:

imachavel said:

anyone going to cry about it? About the big corporations over head?

Of course I understand people's concerns with smallest business lacking the ability to pay over head. But with no consumer confidence those business go broke anyway. What is a business that sells pencils for $1 and sells 10,000 a day making .50 cents on each pencil and pays $9 an hour compared to a business that sells pencils and sells 1000 a day and makes .50 cents on each pencil and pays $7 an hour?

Confidence is the #1 reason a consumer spends money. $1 more shouldn't hurt much.. 10 employees less per business... obviously will

---

now the pencil costs 75 cents to make and the price of pencils goes up to
$1.50, you get pissed because there;s no way you're spending that much for
a pencil so you resort to pens, that;s wonderful becausue the pen factory can
put on an extra shift to keep up with demand but the pencil factory is now
out of business because no one is buying pencils, the extra shift at the
pencil factory is only 25 people while the pencil factory was a work crew of
100 in addition to the office staff, luck us, we just cut 100 jobs in the US
while the chinese pen factory is not selling more pens at $1 each but only
paying the employees 3 cents

you have no real concept of how a business runs do you

a local factory here pays an average of $40k/yr to employees, most have been
there for 10 years, some as long as 30 are making around $90k, they all get
bonuses and benefits, office staff can earn as much as $150k of they earn
commissions which sounds like it's all just money in the pocket, now the
company may do $100 million in business every year, they also have 750
employees to pay, their annual payroll is $50 million, they pay out on
electricity is almost 20 million, the materials take another $40 million and
since they cant reuse the waste to keep making products they pay to have that
hauled off, then of course there's maintenance for the machinery, something
they have another $100 million tied up in, then the building, the taxes, the
stock holders, etc... profit margins arent like you believe them to be,
companies may earn 3% of their total revenues and while that sounds like a
lot when you're talking about hundreds of millions, you quickly discover that
much of that goes into trying to grow the business


why dont you drop a few million in tooling ant start putting people to work

---

This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard of. You people are the most idiotic room of fake financial advisers in history. My dad had a friend that was going bank rupt he owned 4 gas stations. I had an argument with him one day that making $7 an hour is barely enough to cover food and gas with the price of rent around here on top of it, and suggested not wanting to live in a bad neighbourhood you'd be better off making $8 that the little extra revenue would take you a lot further. He argued and argued with me that this would bankrupt him. So I went and to be a good guy, even the guy was a piece of shit, tried to get him a loan through this loan company I signed a contract with to keep his business going.

You know what happened? He filled out the application, and they looked into his monthly profit and loss figures, he wasn't approved at all. The cost of labour was the lowest part, less then 15% of the over head. The cost of his gas he was buying it at like $4.10 a gallon and selling it $4.18 a gallon, his lease for each station was $120,000 a year, I mean FUCKING RIDICULOUS. The guy has NO financial insight, and when one gas station was performing poorly, bought another 4.

Are you honestly going to fucking sit here and tell me you work as an accountant? BULL shit!! No one plans out a business with their profits so slim that they have a .50 cent margin of loss and they are bank rupt. This is a FAILING BUSINESS MODEL. MOST people try and plan out a business, small one lot business, to make them $100,000 a year profit AFTER all the over head is deducted, they plan it out to make a certain amount, and if the amount isn't made, they have room for a few other deductions in case of un for seen costs, 5k here, 5k there, 5k here. You are going to tell me an idiot starts a business without for seeing government regulations such as minimum wage?

This guy was getting KILLED by lease and whole sale costs, and didn't have the financial for sight to plan out to see that one gas station was killing him, and bought another 3.

Do you find it strange that medium companies make decisions based on possibly thousands of employees, and don't plan out the financial wisdom to for see a possibility that the government may raise the minimum wage $1 or $2? And I even asked the VP at this loan company the same question "what about the minimum wage, wouldn't the guy be better off without it?" You know what the VP told me? "fuck no, being a loan company we don't hand out loans to anyone. I think it's incredibly irresponsible for someone to make plans involving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in terms of profit and over head and not have the experience to run a business. Why do you feel a person assumes risk and gets paid more then someone else? He has the skill to keep volume and sales going, he is a skilled person. A person making minimum doesn't complain they don't own a business, because not every person can own a business, it takes determination and experience and skill, and the owner assumes all risk"

Then I'm going to cry when $1 is thrown onto the minimum wage and a business goes bankrupt? Do you understand what "assuming the responsibility" means? It means...

ASSUMING THE RESPONSIBILITY

You are making a decision based on your skill and experience that you know how to maintain a volume of sales. And btw you haven't proven to me in any way shape or form that a pen is cheaper to manufacture then a pencil. There is no law that says a person has to raise the cost of a pencil to $1.50. If a person sells something at .10 cents, and makes a high enough volume, they could potentially be worth $100,000,000,000 in revenue.

I should ask the same question. Do you think that a person that makes a lot of money in a business is or isn't a skilled person? Do you think someone should just ride a roller coaster of success? I sure don't think so.

deucedbi9 said:

Prisoner#1 said:

imachavel said:

anyone going to cry about it? About the big corporations over head?

Of course I understand people's concerns with smallest business lacking the ability to pay over head. But with no consumer confidence those business go broke anyway. What is a business that sells pencils for $1 and sells 10,000 a day making .50 cents on each pencil and pays $9 an hour compared to a business that sells pencils and sells 1000 a day and makes .50 cents on each pencil and pays $7 an hour?

Confidence is the #1 reason a consumer spends money. $1 more shouldn't hurt much.. 10 employees less per business... obviously will

---

now the pencil costs 75 cents to make and the price of pencils goes up to
$1.50, you get pissed because there;s no way you're spending that much for
a pencil so you resort to pens, that;s wonderful becausue the pen factory can
put on an extra shift to keep up with demand but the pencil factory is now
out of business because no one is buying pencils, the extra shift at the
pencil factory is only 25 people while the pencil factory was a work crew of
100 in addition to the office staff, luck us, we just cut 100 jobs in the US
while the chinese pen factory is not selling more pens at $1 each but only
paying the employees 3 cents

you have no real concept of how a business runs do you

a local factory here pays an average of $40k/yr to employees, most have been
there for 10 years, some as long as 30 are making around $90k, they all get
bonuses and benefits, office staff can earn as much as $150k of they earn
commissions which sounds like it's all just money in the pocket, now the
company may do $100 million in business every year, they also have 750
employees to pay, their annual payroll is $50 million, they pay out on
electricity is almost 20 million, the materials take another $40 million and
since they cant reuse the waste to keep making products they pay to have that
hauled off, then of course there's maintenance for the machinery, something
they have another $100 million tied up in, then the building, the taxes, the
stock holders, etc... profit margins arent like you believe them to be,
companies may earn 3% of their total revenues and while that sounds like a
lot when you're talking about hundreds of millions, you quickly discover that
much of that goes into trying to grow the business


why dont you drop a few million in tooling ant start putting people to work

---

Apart from all that>

Should she be able to make a living wage from her vital, though menial labour, or should her employers pay just part of it while the rest comes from the taxes levied on their profits, and the tax-paying public, after they profited hugely from her underpaid labour?

Isn't this corporate welfare, highly profitable companies paying part of the living expenses of their employees, so that they can make larger profits at the expense of other taxpayers.

---

No of course not. In this country poverty being reduced for hard working employees is not as important as a business owner making profit. There is no longer a need for a business owner to be considered a "skilled person." It takes no skill, and an extra $10 an hour over head total yearly will surely destroy any business and we should cry when someone is profiting .10 cents an hour over their over head and that is keeping the entire business running and they go bankrupt over a .15 cent change even thought they weren't skilled to keep a high enough sales volume.

There is no real need for responsibility or accountability in this country any more. Regulations like property taxes and corporate government regulations that drive up whole sale pricing and things like Obama care aren't the regulations and laws we should complain about. The ones that really make a difference are the ones like raising an hourly wage $1 or $2 an hour

There is no loop holing with businesses like cruise ships that pay people $20 a day because the employees make good "tips" and other such loop holes. Business should be run by anyone, because it takes no skill to run a business, and of course the argument that raising the minimum wage from $7 to $8 is the same as raising it from $7 to $17 doesn't apply. This is all true

qman said:

Costco which is maybe the top retail company in the US pays its employees 30% higher than the average retail company, yet their profitability is still tops in the sector.

Costco found that having a low turn over rate, and loyal long term employees outweighed the cheaper wages, and in fact saved them money in the long term.

Costco is the exception to the rule, but they proved that not trying to shit on your employees on a daily basis has its benefits, it's called employee loyalty, and that improves a business model better than any CEO's marketing plan.

---