circastes said:

Like McKenna said, no one is in a position to evaluate the psychedelic experience. It is far too removed from ordinary life to put it down to brain chemistry. We're talking about the inner world of a incredible being, yourself. There is too much life in the experience to say it's unreal.

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Quote:

I prefer to believe that the entities I encounter are not of my own imagination, but real and distinct from myself.

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Vaipen said:

I did not know this about Maria Sabina. But her bitterness might have caused her to believe the mushroom would not work anymore for her purposes. I doubt it works that way, then again, she was an expert. But I have a hard time believing that whatever entity lives inside these experiences, they are so petty as to deny millions of other users their benefit. They might blame her though, for her foolishness in having them 'exposed' in some way.

Given the power of the experience I do not doubt that these beings 'work' for me. And that they are powerful enough and smart enough not to hold a literally eternal grudge.

I know what it did for me.

As for shamanic use, we have to reinvent it. And I am doing that myself. I am finding my own rituals and insights. And in a way we all participate. We just have to set up new lineages. One day some of us will introduce it to someone else, teach them all that is known. And they add to that knowledge and one day also pass it on.

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Quote:

There is a downside to my way. Look at Maria Sabina. She, as far as I understand it, felt judged by the entities or gods she had access to during her ritual approach. And that bothered her and denied her access, or somehow it was never the same after. Maybe she took it too far, believed too strongly in those 'gods'. Too much ritualism empowers these allies.

So I make sure I am not taking it too far. I need to find a balance between the awesome superlative that I am and that the allies are. For I am a human of Earth, an immortal being that creates cosmos. I am a god myself. So I come to these encounters as a child and a god. And I humbly seek wisdom, knowledge and enlightenment but will stand my ground.

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rockthomas said:

If I had access to both, I would choose ayahuasca. I think most people would. There is a mystery to creating ayahuasca as well, so the shaman has more power over his people.

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zzripz said:

Vaipen said:

I did not know this about Maria Sabina. But her bitterness might have caused her to believe the mushroom would not work anymore for her purposes. I doubt it works that way, then again, she was an expert. But I have a hard time believing that whatever entity lives inside these experiences, they are so petty as to deny millions of other users their benefit. They might blame her though, for her foolishness in having them 'exposed' in some way.

Given the power of the experience I do not doubt that these beings 'work' for me. And that they are powerful enough and smart enough not to hold a literally eternal grudge.

I know what it did for me.

As for shamanic use, we have to reinvent it. And I am doing that myself. I am finding my own rituals and insights. And in a way we all participate. We just have to set up new lineages. One day some of us will introduce it to someone else, teach them all that is known. And they add to that knowledge and one day also pass it on.

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This is GREAT to hear Vaipen. That you are not dependent on others traditions but  create your own sacred space etc. I( would be real interested if you would describe a healing ritual or whatever way you see it?

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Hi man! Good to hear from you.

I am at the earliest and modest of beginnings. So I am still looking around as to what sort of style this should have.

But I think that there should be two sides to this practice, a private and a public so to say. The public is what you share with others, the private must remain private to keep its power. I guess I base this on what I learned from esoteric traditions, my own experience and Castaneda's  material. In Castaneda's world he was given a name to call an ally by.
My suggestion is that this is an important part for anyone interested in some ritual approach. This name is kept private, always. It sounds a bit like native american practices I suppose, where one gets a spirit guide.

Right now I am crafting a work of clay depicting mushrooms around a small space where I can put the Original Sacrament This could be used for meditation or gaining some focus. It can be part of a small shrine that I am sort of setting up. I already have a picture of McKenna enframed, that will be part of it. Note that I never liked hero-worshipping. But to some extend reminding oneself of the gratitude felt, or insight gained from some person is not necessarily all that bad. What I personally like about McKenna is his idea about giving permission. That is to say, that it is morally acceptable to use mushrooms. Since I was never into anything very deeply, like people sometimes are, McKenna was for me the first time I really studied someone's ideas. And the way I write these days are partially influenced by him.

Overall is is a form of infatuation and one I will keep as part of any ritual. Our minds are like unruly, feral beasts who's backs we ride, trying to control them, we cannot get off even though we want to and struggle all our lives to remain on  their backs.

We need trickery in our struggle, traps for our own mind that still the beast, calm it down, so the ride gets more pleasurable. One of these tricks are rituals.

Once you set up a place for self-trickery and enter into this paradox of taming your mind whilst letting it rampage into a trap, you can start your rituals from there, like healing rituals.

I have a sort of ritual for healing but it might not be what you think it is. But I suppose it should be part of any more ritualistic approach.

In fact, I believe it helped cure a friend who had cancer. She had a tumor that was inoperable. But combining modern medical knowledge, orthomolecular diet and supplements and something I did it dissapeared. The part that I did I cannot go into because it is quite a scared thing for me. It is based on many types of knowledge, insights, ideas and notions I gathered. In essence if I reveal it, it might not work when I need it next time. So in that sense I am Sabina-like. I also don't want to talk much about it because it might put my ego in the practice and disable myself that way. I am doing something, I don't know what it is, but I know it works and that is enough for me. I feel quite humble I am able to do it and it is very hard, costs me a log of energy, focus and love.

It seems to me through my experience with this, one doesn't really need to know all about it. That is the scientific way of doing things. Measure every reaction. If you look at the weird performances of shamans when they heal you are left thinking 'how the hell would spitting in someones' face help in any way? But there is an unseen and very strange aspect to these healings and the way if works lies in a mysterious hidden layer of our consciousness. It is paradoxical, totally nonsense and yet it follows a logic of another realm so to say, that seems to be able to affect our bodies in this world. Just 'doing' something might be all that is needed. You don't need paranormal gifts or superpower.
But  amother will place her hands over a pain in their child naturally. It might have an instinctual component to it. Just 'do'.  Enough Yoda for now! :-)

So in the future when I need to 'do' I might actually take a moment in front of my 'altar' to help focus my intent.

Hope this helps somehow.

zzripz said:

Quote:

There is a downside to my way. Look at Maria Sabina. She, as far as I understand it, felt judged by the entities or gods she had access to during her ritual approach. And that bothered her and denied her access, or somehow it was never the same after. Maybe she took it too far, believed too strongly in those 'gods'. Too much ritualism empowers these allies.

So I make sure I am not taking it too far. I need to find a balance between the awesome superlative that I am and that the allies are. For I am a human of Earth, an immortal being that creates cosmos. I am a god myself. So I come to these encounters as a child and a god. And I humbly seek wisdom, knowledge and enlightenment but will stand my ground.

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Loving your ideas Vaipen!

I had reservations about Mazatec ritual--of which maria Sabina is of course a bit part--because it is So Catholicized (not even sure that's a word. VERY much influenced by the Catholic church). I  cringe about that, because I am very aware of them being the oppressor. In a way one can see that they have not been subdued by them but used their archetypes, but yet---when I have read about Mazatec healers, they do tend to be a bit churchy when it comes to sex. Same is so for Ayahuesceros. healers often become celibate because they say the spirits tell them that having sexual life grounds them too much. THAT idea sounds to me very patriarchal! In the Goddess religion nature, the body, and sexuality are sacred and healing.
I also haven't dug the emphasis of the 'Purge' which is what Ayahuasca is known as as a kind of getting rid of impurity. Hard to explain what I mean, but I can dig you puke up, but in comparison with shrooms where you dont puke, some will claim that the puking and shitting is superior because it is expelling impurity. THAT idea to me is too churchy. it is saying your natural state is impure etc. I am very wary of the pure versus impure scenario. Ayahuescero seems quite ascetic. You have to change diet, and there's all that pukin and shitting but with shrooms it is not like that. LOL guess which one I am attracted to?

BUT like you I feel we should hold our ground and not become subservient to 'spirits'. Yes accept them in relationship but not lose our own sense of power. We must keep asking questions!

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Quote:

The body's purging will affect the mind to believe it is more healthy, therefore the body will be more healthy because the mind believe it. A matter of association.

Does that sound logical to you, lie in the realm of possibilities

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zzripz said:

I am curious about the Aztec and Mayan cultures. These cultures apparently had the use of magic mushrooms and YET there was a belief that people had to be sacrificed to appease the spirits/gods and apparently MUCH blood was shed in these horrendous rituals where hearts were pulled out of chests etc. So what does all that mean?

In the Christian religion they claim to have gotten rid of sacrifice and yet their very founding story if no other than 'God's only Son' being gruesomely tortured and then crucified as payment for humankind's sin. AND in their history they have done mass psychotic bloodfests like the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all the wars in the name of their 'God'. What does this mean?

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zzripz said:

lol we are questioning, and that I think is healing in itself and stops getting too rigid. I dont like rituals when they rigidity--that is where religion comes from, and sacrifice of course.

I am curious about the Aztec and Mayan cultures. These cultures apparently had the use of magic mushrooms and YET there was a belief that people had to be sacrificed to appease the spirits/gods and apparently MUCH blood was shed in these horrendous rituals where hearts were pulled out of chests etc. So what does all that mean?

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Quote:

In the Christian religion they claim to have gotten rid of sacrifice and yet their very founding story if no other than 'God's only Son' being gruesomely tortured and then crucified as payment for humankind's sin. AND in thier history they have done mass psychotic bloodfests like the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all the wars in the name of their 'God'. What does this mean?

Quote:

The body's purging will affect the mind to believe it is more healthy, therefore the body will be more healthy because the mind believe it. A matter of association.

Does that sound logical to you, lie in the realm of possibilities?

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Of course. But also I could also see it that when we say trip on shrooms that all of the thoughts, feelings, body feelings is an expression ALSO. This guy I like who is presently writing a book about self-healing on magic mushrooms, James W Jesso, talks about facing your Shadow, the darkness, as a way to heal. And that we don't NEED to go down Peru for Ayahuasca, we already have all the sacred medicine we need here--the psychedelic mushrooms:

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Jimmy Sage said:

The poster claimed his favorite is ayahuasca, due to a shaman in Peru telling him that shrooms are the "tricksters and jesters" of psychedelia. They are unlike aya in that they have no conscious entity and instead attracts different entities that do not care if you benefit or don't benefit from the experience, as the experience is for the entity to enjoy. They are doing it for their own purposes.

Whereas Aya seems to have a conscious entity that only means to heal humans.

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