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Shamans don't use mushrooms?
    #18101726 -



At 36:47 McKenna mentions how ayahuasqueros won't give "the time of day" to mushrooms, that they use mushrooms when they don't have ayahuasca, which is tongue in cheek because they always have ayahuasca.

This seems to be in accordance with my google searching, I can never find any "mushroom" shamans, although ayahuasqueros seem to be quite common, and mescaline containing cacti are still commonly used.

There is a recorded history of mushrooms being used by the Aztecs when Columbus first got here, there's Maria Sabina back in Hoffman's day, and I'm sure there must be some traditional users these days; but in general, mushrooms don't seem to have the same traditional shamanic following that ayahuasca and cacti do, even though people must be aware of them.

Any idea why this may be?

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Space Monkey]
    #18101731 -

Yay anthropology!

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: joshisstoned]
    #18101749 -

well the first devastation to the original mushroom culture is assumed by most anthropologists to be the rise of Hinduism and other near monotheistic cultures in southern asia. some believe it to be the mythical Soma.

Then later in south america when Mushroom culture was very much a sacred tool until conquistadors like cortez  came and brought a misguided branch of forced christian beliefs.

Several preachers who at the time were considered the only wealth of 'scientific' knowledge have written accounts and i believe there is a pdf copy on erowid. it was the opinion of these preachers that made the first written prohibition of a psychedelic mushroom

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Saint Stephen]
    #18101770 -

But why did ayahuasca and cacti use survive? And why did McKenna say the shamans only use mushrooms in the absence of ayahuasca (never)? If they know of the mushrooms, and are still using ayahuasca or mescaline, why did mushrooms get abandoned?

Like I said, there's some exceptions like Maria Sabina, but for the most part there doesn't seem to be many mushroom shamans...plenty of ayahuasqueros and peyote road men though!

Edited by Space Monkey (04/13/13 08:40 AM)

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Saint Stephen]
    #18101781 -

Also mckenna is a really cool guy with interesting ideas, but he is one of the worst anthropologists in history, and anthro has a really short history ( unless you wanna get into semantics but that is a thread for another day)

Im sure in the depths of the rain forest you will find at least one tribe who still lives in the old ways.

also if anything shroomery..... not shamens but a collective of  information and communication here to help you on the mushroom path.

im sure in the future anthropology classes websites like this will come up in discussion.

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Saint Stephen]
    #18101785 -

And true shamens dont advertise on the internet, Most wouldnt know what the internet is. Just because we dont see them dosnt mean they arnt there

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Space Monkey]
    #18101907 -

" In western Siberia, the use of A. muscaria was restricted to shamans, who used it as an alternative method of achieving a trance state. (Normally, Siberian shamans achieve trance by prolonged drumming and dancing.)" wiki

Sometimes Amanita is prescribed to be the Soma of the East, but yeah I guess they didn't have ayahuasca.

Edited by Buster_Brown (04/13/13 09:26 AM)

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Space Monkey]
    #18101923 -



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18101942 -

Sad:

"While she was initially hospitable to the truth seekers thronging to her, their lack of respect for the sacred and traditional purposes caused María Sabina to remark:

"Before Wasson, nobody took the children simply to find God. They were always taken to cure the sick."

As the community was besieged by Westerners wanting to experience the mushroom induced hallucinations, Sabina attracted attention by the Mexican police who thought that she sold drugs to the foreigners. The unwanted attention completely altered the social dynamics of the Mazatec community and threatened to terminate the Mazatec custom. The community blamed Sabina, and she was ostracized in the community and had her house burned down. Sabina later regretted having introduced Wasson to the practice, but Wasson contended that his only intention was to contribute to the sum of human knowledge.[7] [8][9]

Late in life, María Sabina became bitter about her many misfortunes, and how others had profited from her name.[10] She also felt that the ceremony of the velada had been desecrated and irremediably polluted by the hedonistic use of the mushrooms:

"From the moment the foreigners arrived, the 'holy children' lost their purity. They lost their force, they ruined them. Henceforth they will no longer work. There is no remedy for it."

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #18102020 -

I did not know this about Maria Sabina. But her bitterness might have caused her to believe the mushroom would not work anymore for her purposes. I doubt it works that way, then again, she was an expert. But I have a hard time believing that whatever entity lives inside these experiences, they are so petty as to deny millions of other users their benefit. They might blame her though, for her foolishness in having them 'exposed' in some way.

Given the power of the experience I do not doubt that these beings 'work' for me. And that they are powerful enough and smart enough not to hold a literally eternal grudge.

I know what it did for me.

As for shamanic use, we have to reinvent it. And I am doing that myself. I am finding my own rituals and insights. And in a way we all participate. We just have to set up new lineages. One day some of us will introduce it to someone else, teach them all that is known. And they add to that knowledge and one day also pass it on.

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #18102766 -

Buster_Brown said:
Sad:

"While she was initially hospitable to the truth seekers thronging to her, their lack of respect for the sacred and traditional purposes caused María Sabina to remark:

"Before Wasson, nobody took the children simply to find God. They were always taken to cure the sick."

As the community was besieged by Westerners wanting to experience the mushroom induced hallucinations, Sabina attracted attention by the Mexican police who thought that she sold drugs to the foreigners. The unwanted attention completely altered the social dynamics of the Mazatec community and threatened to terminate the Mazatec custom. The community blamed Sabina, and she was ostracized in the community and had her house burned down. Sabina later regretted having introduced Wasson to the practice, but Wasson contended that his only intention was to contribute to the sum of human knowledge.[7] [8][9]

Late in life, María Sabina became bitter about her many misfortunes, and how others had profited from her name.[10] She also felt that the ceremony of the velada had been desecrated and irremediably polluted by the hedonistic use of the mushrooms:

"From the moment the foreigners arrived, the 'holy children' lost their purity. They lost their force, they ruined them. Henceforth they will no longer work. There is no remedy for it."




That's life Maria, deal with it, you're not special. .:satansmoking:

You'd think, considering all the people here that say shrooms give you precognition and all that shit that an expert like her would have seen it coming. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18103029 -

She did say that the mushrooms allow the Gods to speak through her.
Thats the truth.

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18103935 -

:lol: Because she said it.

Seems to me she was laboring under the same likely mistaken impression that many psychedelic users of today are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (04/13/13 05:50 PM)

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18105024 -

Like McKenna said, no one is in a position to evaluate the psychedelic experience. It is far too removed from ordinary life to put it down to brain chemistry. We're talking about the inner world of a incredible being, yourself. There is too much life in the experience to say it's unreal.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: circastes]
    #18105295 -

No one said it was unreal. :lol: It's as real as you and I discussing this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18106728 -

I believe there are also "shamans" in africa who use psilocybes. I remember reading about some guy down there who takes MASSIVE amounts.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18106863 -

Icelander said:
:lol: Because she said it.

Seems to me she was laboring under the same likely mistaken impression that many psychedelic users of today are.




No no.  The emotional quest for language is 'helped' by supplied words from spirits.  Or the 'gods' of this earth.

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18107010 -

Really?:whoa:

But they never bothered to tell her that her culture was about to be shat on?  Maybe they just forgot. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: Icelander]
    #18107050 -

As a function of the collective...  They probably got all discombobulated when all these seekers showed up.

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Re: Shamans don't use mushrooms? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18107074 -

I knew about Maria Sabina, I'm just noticing that while ayahuasqueros are common, mushroom healers are not. I know some people use them and there has been traditions oriented around them...I'm just wondering why it is ayahuasca was prized so highly and survived so well in the culture when the mushrooms didn't

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