Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Determining the psychoactivity of a substance?
    #17800829 -

So when looking at chemicals that are analogs to chemicals that are known to be psychoactive, is there any way to determine if they will be psychoactive as well (BESIDES actually dosing the chemical)?

Same thing with neurotoxicity if possible. I'm asking because i've been thinking about RCs and the creation process. Are the chemicals just created and tested for pschoactivity? Or is there a way to determine that without putting a life at risk?


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17800857 -

Shulgin talks about how he tested all the chemicals he ever made in his book PiHKAL.  He starts off at a dose that is a bit below threshhold for a analog of that new compound.  Then slowly increases the dose until he finds where it is active.  Do a little more and see what happens, and then gives it to his friends to try out and they report back to him the effects at certain doses. 

He talked about giving it to fish and other animals but there is no real way to tell with those.


--------------------
Walk where you like your steps

Edited by dodgem (02/14/13 12:49 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: dodgem]
    #17800935 -

That is better than shooting in the dark! Yea i had heard Shulgin tested most of his chems himself. What about for a chem that has 2 analogs? Like a chemical that is very closely related to 2 psychoactive chemicals, but the two chemicals have different dosage ranges? Just go with the lowest one?


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17801072 -

Waiting for the expanded release of 2 C T, it breaks down to the illegal 2c t7 :-D


--------------------


If I knew the way, I would take you home.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Agentchewy]
    #17801093 -

I can't be of too much help but I would say Shulgin might have the right idea. If you have access, you could also try a library or a local college campus for assistance. Maybe even try Google for recommended at home processes.


--------------------
SUPPORT THE SHULGINS!!

Badaboom's RGS Prep Tek

My First Trip (detailed trip report)
Tek Development
TMETHYLS What it shouldn't Look Like Pictorial


:alot:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Badaboom]
    #17801842 -

I have been looking into creating a possible psychedelic (i'm above average with chemistry and i know that sounds crazy but right now its just theoretical, i believe i have found an easy way to make it without effort on my part) and if i do perform the experiment i have planned i wanna know the best way to go about dosing. Anyway, that is still a ways away as of now. Just theorizing. Dont worry i wont be blowing stuff up and burning my skin off with acids, i'll explain if i get around to trying it. It involves mycelium, not crazy chemicals.


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17801987 -

jjjcmzzt said:
I have been looking into creating a possible psychedelic (i'm above average with chemistry and i know that sounds crazy but right now its just theoretical, i believe i have found an easy way to make it without effort on my part) and if i do perform the experiment i have planned i wanna know the best way to go about dosing. Anyway, that is still a ways away as of now. Just theorizing. Dont worry i wont be blowing stuff up and burning my skin off with acids, i'll explain if i get around to trying it. It involves mycelium, not crazy chemicals.


Chemistry status: Hiesenberg


--------------------
SUPPORT THE SHULGINS!!

Badaboom's RGS Prep Tek

My First Trip (detailed trip report)
Tek Development
TMETHYLS What it shouldn't Look Like Pictorial


:alot:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Badaboom]
    #17802879 -

Sounds interesting.  As interested in chemistry as I am, this would probably be me if I were attempting to create a new psychedelic drug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Psilosomniac]
    #17802971 -

Haha well if you are interested it has to do with substituting a tryptamine analog using psilocybe mycelium. I posted about it in chemistry and pharmacology a couple months back but didnt get good responses. They were somewhat helpful but i think the only way to know of it will work is to try it myself, because to my knowledge, nobody has tried this chemical.

Psilocybe cubensis mycelium can be used to substitute tryptamine analogs in the 4th position. For example, if you add DET (DiEthylTryptamine) to mycelium, then you can get 4-HO-DET and 4-PO-DET, despite the fact that the mycelium doesn't do this by itself. I will be relying on this principle to create 2 substances (although since tryptamines with a phosphorloxy group are typically pro-drugs, im more concerned about the tryptamine with the hydroxyl group being psychoactive).

I plan on being very scientific about my testing of the chemical and i will post results assuming a do get around to it. It will be really cool to say i created my own psychedelic, but it wouldnt be cool if it was neurotoxic and killed me. Im not too worried though, it is basically a combination of two common tryptamine psychedelics, one less popular than the other. Ill post more details tomorrow with a chemical structure and whatnot.


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17803117 -

jjjcmzzt said:
Psilocybe cubensis mycelium can be used to substitute tryptamine analogs in the 4th position. For example, if you add DET (DiEthylTryptamine) to mycelium, then you can get 4-HO-DET and 4-PO-DET



I thought this theory was confirmed as bullshit?


--------------------
date ; unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Dawks]
    #17803186 -

Dawks said:
jjjcmzzt said:
Psilocybe cubensis mycelium can be used to substitute tryptamine analogs in the 4th position. For example, if you add DET (DiEthylTryptamine) to mycelium, then you can get 4-HO-DET and 4-PO-DET



I thought this theory was confirmed as bullshit?


Not according to this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jobm.3620290608/abstract;jsessionid=1610C0D3EDB4441A09BD0A35CB921103.d03t03


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17803741 -

jjjcmzzt said:
Dawks said:
jjjcmzzt said:
Psilocybe cubensis mycelium can be used to substitute tryptamine analogs in the 4th position. For example, if you add DET (DiEthylTryptamine) to mycelium, then you can get 4-HO-DET and 4-PO-DET



I thought this theory was confirmed as bullshit?


Not according to this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jobm.3620290608/abstract;jsessionid=1610C0D3EDB4441A09BD0A35CB921103.d03t03


This is mentioned in the TIHKAL article on 4-HO-DET.  He also brought up that DET is synthetic, and posed the question of whether 4-HO-DET when produced by the hydroxylation of DET by mushrooms is synthetic or natural.  Kind of goes to show the whole natural vs synthetic argument is a bit silly :shrug:.

What compound do you hope to create with this experiment down the road anyhow?


In light of the recent happenings with LSB(D), I've been thinking about tryptamines with indane groups rather than indole groups (I have admittedly limited knowledge of chemistry, but I've been doing some research).  This might be a ridiculous question to ask, but would it be possible to get psilocybe mushrooms to hydroxylate an indane version of a tryptamine?  Perhaps an indane version of DMT, to keep things simple (can such a compound even exist?).  I haven't really been able to find much information on indane alkaloids (is this proper terminology?), so I don't know if there's something fundamentally different about the way such compounds would work in this context.  I'm just making possibly inane speculations about things I don't know much about at this point :lol:.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Psilosomniac]
    #17805314 -

I personally dont know much about lysergides, just tryptamines and limited knowledge of phenethylamines.

Well the chemical i want to attempt to create is bufocin. Basically i want to add bufotenin to small amounts of mycelium in different quantities, and hopefully the resulting chemical will be hydroxylated in the 4th AND 5th positions of the indole ring. I am just not sure if the HO on the 5th position would interfere with the hydrolase enzyme's(not sure if thats the name) ability to place an HO on the 4th position.

I am getting bufotenine next week so i will be attempting this in a little bit once i map out the experiment. Ill post the chemical structure later tonight if i have the time.

As for the natural vs synthetic, i do believe it is still synthetic because it isnt a byproduct of the natural metabolism of the mycelium, but rather the result of tampering with the contents of the mycelium. Personally, i believe naturals chems do have something synthetics can't offer, but that doesnt mean synthetics are bad. I dont shy away from LSD or DXM or anything, in fact im taking LSD next weekend haha


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17805368 -

Those results that Shulgin was refering to were never reproduced and are largely discredited these days.

In terms of if there is a way to tell if something is psychedelic, the answer is mostly no. Shulgin had to try everything he made, and only some of what he made was active.

There are lab procedures for determining something's binding affinity to certain receptors (that's how we know how well things like LSD and psilocybin bind to 5HT2A), but that would require hardcore science work. I think (but don't know for sure) that there are also high end computer simulations that can simulate chemicals binding to certain receptors, but good luck getting access to something like that.

What you're looking for in a psychedelic is 5HT2A agonism or partial agonism. So, if you could determine in a lab that something does or doesn't bind to 5HT2A, then you could find out if it is psychedelic before anyone has ever tried it. This is how we knew that NBOMe was psychedelic.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17806721 -

nooneman said:
Those results that Shulgin was refering to were never reproduced and are largely discredited these days.


Do you have a source for this?  Not doubting your claim; I'd just like to read more about it.

jjjcmzzt said:
I personally dont know much about lysergides, just tryptamines and limited knowledge of phenethylamines.

Well the chemical i want to attempt to create is bufocin. Basically i want to add bufotenin to small amounts of mycelium in different quantities, and hopefully the resulting chemical will be hydroxylated in the 4th AND 5th positions of the indole ring. I am just not sure if the HO on the 5th position would interfere with the hydrolase enzyme's(not sure if thats the name) ability to place an HO on the 4th position.

I am getting bufotenine next week so i will be attempting this in a little bit once i map out the experiment. Ill post the chemical structure later tonight if i have the time.

As for the natural vs synthetic, i do believe it is still synthetic because it isnt a byproduct of the natural metabolism of the mycelium, but rather the result of tampering with the contents of the mycelium. Personally, i believe naturals chems do have something synthetics can't offer, but that doesnt mean synthetics are bad. I dont shy away from LSD or DXM or anything, in fact im taking LSD next weekend haha


Sounds like an interesting experiment! :thumbup:  Like I said, I don't know all that much about chemistry, so I can't comment on its viability.  Of course, if it turns out that DET isn't hydroxylated by psilocybe mushrooms as Shulgin was referring to, then this probably won't work :shrug:.

Only science will tell!
:havesomescience:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Determining the psychoactivity of a substance? [Re: Psilosomniac]
    #17806821 -

Yea i mean if it doesnt work then i just extract the bufotenine back out of the mycelium, simple as that!


--------------------
Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

"LSD is a psychedelic substance which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people that have never taken it."

DEATH METAL \m/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Substance of reality Sterile 1,153 13 11/29/05 06:30 PM
by ColdCash
* Bufotenine (psychoactive, or not psychoactive) ethnobotany 2,416 4 11/24/04 03:47 PM
by ethnobotany
* Mushrooms grown on tryptamine substrates produce different chemicals passitbobbie 1,227 2 07/31/06 03:30 PM
by passitbobbie
* bufotenin?? digitalcube 1,904 10 01/07/05 12:59 PM
by mjshroomer
* Tryptamines or Phenethylamines?
( 1 2 all )		 Hippie Chemist 4,079 20 04/09/07 10:40 AM
by Ransford
* Why does't Yopo feel like a Tryptamine? UncleLuke 1,453 7 04/28/07 07:55 AM
by cpw1971
* Unusual side effects from psychoactives. Ped 1,211 12 10/08/03 11:33 AM
by FlowGnome
* Psychoactive toad mushroomcult 983 5 11/28/06 11:44 AM
by kija

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Asante, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
1,143 topic views. 0 members, 19 guests and 85 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.