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Anonymous

How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes
    #16967 - 05/14/00 06:08 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Understand, before you begin reading this, that water is the most important element to any organism, and even more so to a mushroom. The straw tek has the right idea, but is too crude. With this tech, and a little more work, you can yield and incredible amount from just two cakes, as Fred did. Here's Fred's technique.
My last batch of spawn had been prone to that horrible green mold, so i ended up with about 8 cakes out of a batch of 24 (I know, I know...). I first grew them straight from the cake, not wanting to risk further infection by casing them, and this yielded about 5 grams from one flush of two cakes. After cleaning them off, Fred put them in a rather shallow aluminum tray and cased with a quater inch of vermiculite on the bottom, and a third inch on the top. After a strong first flush, and a less strong 2nd flush, the total dry grams Fred had equalled 20.
Fred's casing was looking shrivelled and dying, but he decided to do something very lazy. He took that casing, scraped all the vermiculite off of it, and cased it again in a flower pot with a 50/50 mix of damp st/seedling potting soil. Thick rhizos shot through the soil, and Fred soon had another two flushes to the first. Fred now had 35g cracker-dry mushrooms from 5 consecutive flushes.
I know Fred very well, and I can tell you straight off that this will work. Its a testament to the awesome survival power of fungus, and I hope soon that the days of 1-2 flushes off of normal pf cakes will soon be over.


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OfflinePrimate
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16968 - 05/14/00 09:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

what did your casing consist of in the flower pot? potting soil and what?


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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16969 - 05/14/00 10:20 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

When Fred put the soil in the pot, he first mixed 50% damp vermiculite with a potting soil made of peat moss and compost. He told me he thinks the compost part of the soil might have helped rejuvenate the mycelium, but he's not sure.


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16970 - 05/14/00 11:25 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Info such as this has been around a while. Rehydration of mycelium is key to producing larger crops, but we must recognize something...

1 cake can only produce *so much psilocybin*. What good is it to produce 5000 grams of mushrooms from one cake if those mushrooms are so weak in potency that i need to eat 2500 dry grams to trip (exageration :smile:). I've seen the only successful way to expand the mycelium with minimal loss of potency of the fruits to be grain spawn ---> compost ---> casing of compost/spawn. Compost seems to have adequate nutrients to stimulate a constant psilocybin production which lasts before, during, and through the fruiting process resulting in equally as potent fruits as any other method.

Trust me, i ventured deep into the woods of experimentation and concluded that this is the most constantly successful way of getting a large amount of potent fruits from minimal spawn.

peace
camel



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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16971 - 05/15/00 01:45 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What you don't understand, dear camel, is that the psilocybin content of a mushroom would always be the same unless acted on by heat or cold or something to impede or allow more. Its DNA controls the amount of psilo. much like ours controls our hormones. A mushroom would never be produced without a certain amount of psilocybin in it, because unless the spawn can supply enough energy to do so, the mushroom isn't complete. These mushrooms have all been tested by Fred, and are quite potent. All I'm saying is, mushrooms spawn doesn't shoot blanks, or rather, impotent mushrooms.


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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16972 - 05/15/00 12:27 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This will sound simplistic, but...Fungi can be extremely long-lived, and like other flora, will exhibit amazing growth and production when all metabolic needs are met all the time (reflect on Cannabis, and 1000 lb. pumpkins).
Rehydration is clearly helping some people to extend their flushes, and certainly renutrification should do the same.
Adding compost would do.
Given these assumptions, it is difficult to see a loss in potency as being inevitable, or even likely.


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Offlineaural
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16973 - 05/15/00 02:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

RE: the nature vs. nurture thing....
I think it is a huge oversimplification to say that genes,in mushrooms or anything else,always are expressed to the exact same degree.Environment will ALWAYS have some effect.


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Offlinecrispy1
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16974 - 05/15/00 03:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't this method essentially using the cake as spawn into the compost? Just because the cake has already flushed does not mean it is not also potential spawn, does it? Or instead, as camel is seeming to say, is this like cloning where the mycelium loses some elements of vigor as its life span is extended?


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16975 - 05/15/00 07:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Kodama: I refer you to The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets that states that over-expansion of mycelium results in lower levels of psilocybin in ALL of the mycelium. And since the fruits are mycelium themselves they are no exception.

You really need to understand some fundamental aspects of the psilocybin mushroom life cycle including some elementary info such as that posted above by myself. The same also holds true for gourmet species of mushrooms. The taste diminishes as the mycelium is expanded.

Think of it like this:

I have 100 baskets and 1000 apples. That's 10 apples per basket (the apple in this case is psilocybin and the baskets is total mycelium including the fruitbodies). Now lets say I remain with 1000 apples (as psilocybin is controlled genetically and is automatically shut-off when the limit is reached), but I now have 1000 baskets (representing the abundance of more mycelium/fruitbodies). Now I can only put 1 apple in each basket (ie the psilocybin content is much lower than if we wouldnt have expanded the mycelial mass), thus resulting in the requirement to eat more fruits to achieve the same effect. So lets say we sold apples by the basket. That means that I would need to buy 10 more baskets now to get the same amount of apples, ya dig?

camel has concluded his lecture in ethnomycology :smile:

peace
camel



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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16976 - 05/16/00 12:46 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Camel, If what you say is true, then growing mycelium to fruition would negate the possibility of that mycelium serving as spawn. An outdoor grower would never harbor such an assumption. Cyan, azure, etc. beds are productive for years, and continue to expand with vigor and potency into new substrate.
Spent cakes serve just fine as spawn, and to think that the biosynthesis of any compound is arrested by fruiting makes no sense. You yourself say that the synthesis of psilocybin can last through the fruiting process. So why this nonsense about 1000 apples? The supply of apples at any one time may be limited, but who in this thread said anything about time frames?
And as regards the Stamets quote, elsewhere, in his boosterish fashion, he has us imagining thousand-fold expansions of mycelium in quart jars as far as the eye can see. Overexpansion, indeed.
And do you really believe that mushrooms in general lose flavor as mycelium expands? (?)
Surely what you think has value, perhaps something is getting lost in the translation


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16977 - 05/16/00 04:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What I'm saying can be seen on page 51 of TMC.

quote:
"Innoculation beyond third generation transfers is not reccomended."
and
"However, every cultivator must ultimately return to agar culture in order to maintain the purity of the strain."

So right there it says it. Let's face it... The mycelium will not grow forever and ever. We must eventually return back to the original culture, because as mycelial expansion progresses your strain deviates further and further away from the norm (original strain). This is how strains begin to degenerate.

It has been proven that a given amount of spawn will produce a given amount of psilocybin, and then slow production or even halt it. This is why over-mature fruits (upturned caps) contain less psilocybin per fruit, because the psilocybin production is halted. This is true with the over-expansion of the spawn as well. The further you try and go with it, the lower the potency of the fruits. Anybody who has experimented with straw knows this very well. If I use 1:10 spawn:straw ratio, I have a much less potent crop than if I would have done a 1:3 ratio. Again, the characteristics of over-mycelial expansion is proved.

Aside from proving myself correct on that point, I feel the need to point out one thing. This post is just a tad too exaggerated to be true. I'm sorry, but there is a correlation between the amount of dry grain used and the total crop yield. This counts even with the addition of a casing layer/adding soil etc etc. Your % efficiency is WELL over that stated by Stamets in his books. I would think that if such incredible 200+% efficiency yields were possible, that the man who went to school for mycology and who makes a living off of writing books about it would be able to figure out such a simple way to increase yields over 200% what was the previous estimate (per dry weight of grain).

It just seems a tad odd that some nobody newbie grower would be able to outgrow Paul Stamets more than 2-fold. Jeez... I'm sending my copy of TMC back to Fungi Perfecti, and I'm buying yours! :smile:

peace
camel



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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16978 - 05/16/00 05:53 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, this question is slightly off of this thread's topic, but was generated by reading through this, here goes:

Am I right in assuming that a strain will not degenerate if spores are taken from mature fruit bodies, and then new mycelium grown from the spores, new spores taken, etc???? Since the whole life cycle is allowed to complete, degeneration would not occur?

So degeneration applies only when you transfer mycelium to new substrate, and keep doing that over and over?

Please let me know if i am right or totally wrong.



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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16979 - 05/16/00 06:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

That's exactly right AD. That is why many culture laboratories keep the original mycelium grown from spore in test tubes in a refrigerator for decades! Just in case strain degeneration by means of over-mycelial expansion occurs. It maintains the purity of the strain, or as with spore prints, creates the diversity of hundreds of thousands of new strains.

Understand the same applies for regular cloning of crops, as I have stated in many of my papers. If you grow mushrooms, clone the best one, use that to grow another crop and clone the best looking again, and repeat this, this quickly leads to strain degeneration.

Strain degeneration here means: Loss of psilocybin production, loss of flavor value, mycelium wont grow to full potential, mutated fruits, etc.

peace
camel



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Offlinehitterg
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16980 - 05/16/00 07:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

camal- does this mean it is acctually better to use spore water instead of the mycelium water that is sometimes recommended?


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16981 - 05/16/00 11:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Not necessarily... I'm saying that if you do a large amount of spawn expansions (ie grain transfers, huge defecits in the spawn:compost/straw ratios, etc) that THIS is bad....

A good rule of thumb, is dont expand your spawn too much before fruiting (or after fruiting, which quite honestly isn't a "heads up" plan anyway minus maybe throwing spent cakes/casings in a garden or compost pile for hopeful fruitings).

So here are the main rules to live by:

1) Don't stretch mycelium further than it can handle.
2) Don't clone cloned strains (ie: don't clone a mushroom from a flush that was derrived from clone mycelium). It's just a bad idea, because the strain can't get that much better :smile:

Doing the above two things will result in one or a combination of the following:

-Odd looking fruits
-Mycelium that halts growth
-Much lower psilocybin/cin levels (in psilocybian species)
-Less pleasant taste (with gourmet species)
-Other fun oddities that will prove unpleasant to the grower/psychonaut :smile:

Hope I've helped...

peace
camel



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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16982 - 05/17/00 01:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Just a couple of points.
Some people maintain that their end-stage flushes are more, not less potent for a given cake. Why?
Senescence theory (cellular) is undergoing revision due to new findings in mammalian cloning experiments. It's probably safe to say that doubts have arisen re. fungal senescence theory as well.
And, the mycelium that is overextended, whether in straw or grain, may be attenuated by any of several factors, such as mutation, an intracellular virus or bacteria, or other competition. ""Weakened", "attenuated", "degenerated" are all subjective terms, meaning we don't like the result, and have nothing to do with viability, per se. A thousand-year-old Armillaria bulbosa mycelial mass (covering the equivalent area of an entire town) would not seem to be degenerate, at least by its own standards.
It is true that changes in mycelial viability, whether due to mutatiun, "senescence", infection, competition, etc., are almost always negative relative to our starting point. But not invariably.
Besides, the original post had to do with multiple flushes on two cakes!
Ur-mycelium strains are kept for any eventuality, including genetic drift. This is because any mutation, or a flaw in mitotic division, whether it occurs at hyphal tips, or in the fruit body leading up to sporulation, may be expressed in the genes of the next generation (flaws in mitotic division may be the likely suspect in senescence).
Vastly extending mycelium (and/or repeated cloning) increases the chances of such flaws occurring, naturally. But not in short-term scenarios, if all other factors are optimized.


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16983 - 05/17/00 04:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It's a well established fact that multiple clonings of subsequent flushes from clones of a strain of any mushroom species to date will quickly land the cultivator into deep trouble unless he/she has a master culture of a previous/master strain on hand. Enviornmental factors have been excluded as being the cause of such degeneration in the fact that multiple tests with control groups to compare with, of a wide array of saprophytic species of mushrooms (those which can easily be cultivated, spanning from the genus Agaricus, Lentinulla, Pleuroteus, Panaleous, Psilocybe, and others).

I spoke with the Lab Manager of a Pennsylvanian mushrooms farm (grows mushrooms for a couple companies like Campbells and smaller companies as well) about where strain degeneration can most commonly come from, and what he said confirmed what my personal studies (of legal mushrooms of course :wink:) had resulted in.

Degenerate strains 95% of the time is due to either A) over-expansion of mycelial mass or B) Multiple clonings of subsequent "clone flushes".

It is also a well known fact in many of the mycological groups that I have been involved with that psilocybin/cin production can directly be correlated to a bell curve model.

In other words... The first couple and last couple flushes will be have fruits that have the lowest psilocybin content. This means that quite often the 3rd/sometimes 4th flush will contain rather high (compared to other flushes) levels of psilocybin/cin and then drop substantially afterwords.

This led my personal cultivation of psilocybian mushrooms to a new path (theoretical cultivation of course). I would allow the first 2 flushes to flush, but I would limit the amount of spaces that receive light by covering them up with black construction paper. Usually I just put a sheet that fit in the middle of the casing tray, and allowed about 2" of flushing space on all sides. Just as the 2nd flush was past pinning (12 hours after pins are seen) the construction paper was removed and light was allowed to hit the center of the casing. This resulted in very large 3rd and 4th flushes.

Lab analysis confirmed that psilocybin/cin content of the 3rd flush was almost 35% higher than that of the 1st or 2nd flush.

I confirmed my theoretical experiment with the head of the Mycology dept at the closest University that offered mycology as a dept (University shall remain nameless for anonimity purposes :wink:).

I do, however, find it humorous that you compare mammalian cloning to that of fungi! Is that because in the cloning of a mammal one takes some live tissue from the animal and puts it on malt extract agar? Just kiddin :smile: But I failed to make the connection in comparing two different kingdoms. All is good though :smile: No worries...
peace
camel


[This message has been edited by camel (edited May 18, 2000).]



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Anonymous

Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16984 - 05/18/00 01:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus, camel! This is'nt a battle!
And the thought of "losing" never entered my mind. I don't care a lick for winning or losing; as long as somebody has some factual information, I'm grateful (hint: I have no interest in the veracity of 35 dry grams... bla bla. I have no "reputation" on the line. Kodama may have misspoken about the variability of psilocybin/cin content, but he is probably right about his net potency. Either way, fine).
About mammalian cloning: Assumptions re. the loss of "guard" material on the ends of nucleotide chains during cellular division were seemingly plausible explanations for the loss of cellular vitality in aging for those species of organism that undergo mitosis irrelevant for viruses), so that clones were supposed to be already aged, even when the organism appeared young. This made the papers in coverage of the "Dolly the sheep" story. But this theory is in serious question now, some mammalian clones now purported to have an increased, not decreased, amount of DNA-strand protection. This indicates that the theory claiming that clones (and only clones) suffer cellular senescence due to high total numbers of cellular divisions and "eroding" DNA, may not be an answer to the question of why cells age. Sorry, I thought you knew what I was referring to.
So, though I think it is overemphasized in our discussion, I have to ask- what is aging or degeneration, senescence, whatever? DNA at fault, or DNA-RNA transcription flaws, or faulty division of extranuclear material in cell division? The effects of intracellular microorganisms? Immune or enzymatic system irregularities leading to autodestructive phenomena? Environmental effects such as toxins or other multitudinous stressors? As far as I hear, we must await definitive answers (possibly different for different species). Or we can lump everything into one catch-all term, and agree that when something such as mycelium is old, it's self-evident. The definition of over-expansion is when it doesn't meet expectations anymore. By the way, this not meeting expectations does include spore-produced second, third, whatever generations, due to genetic drift, if nothing else.
But then what about all the cases that could be due to controllable factors? Failure to adequately crop in bulk with low inoculation volumes should not be done, yes. But if it is, it should be approached with the idea of controlling what factors you can control, not anticipating failure due to a catch-all overexpansion theory.
I am as sure as you are that degenerative changes in mycelia do occur, rendering them relatively useless. But how often does this crop up with most home growers, compared to other problems?
As an example, in my case, running a problem mycelium through antibiotic agar returned it to vigor.
And again, most people are only going to go as far as Kodama, extending the growth of a couple of cakes into a modest amount of added substrate. Meaning that his potency probably did not drop off as the tail of a bell curve, as the new substrate provided what could be seen as a first flush, anyway.
I intend you no disrespect, camel, and the points of disagreement we may have are at best unimportant. I think overexpansion is a Red Herring, you don't.
p.s. Thanks for the info on bell-curve flushes. That explains why some folks have more potent final flushes. They just didn't flush after the third or fourth time, I guess. I'm done.


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Offlinecamel
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16985 - 05/18/00 04:13 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Don't worry man... I'm not offended by anything... I just like having truthful info posted here... A way to compare psilocybin/cin production to be easily understood goes like this:

Humans produce very little (head) hair when they are young infants. Over time this goes up to a period of lots of hair production, then eventually decreses, and for some people, go bald altogether.

Hehe... I could've saved myself a lot of typing effort by saying that from the get-go :smile: Ahhh well, it's good to have lots of facts on the board to better the newbie and advanced cultivator alike :smile:

peace
camel



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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: How to yield 35+ Dry Grams from 2 cakes [Re: Anonymous]
    #16986 - 05/18/00 06:52 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

why did you delete my post, camel ?
i said i do not believe you and ask for proof so my post dissappears ?
now i'm even more suspicious.

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