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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Giving of Your Self
    #1682083 - 07/03/03 02:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have met people who've claimed they want to use their lives for the sole purpose of helping others.  They said this act of giving and striving only to enrich the lives of others made them feel very fulfilled.  Being selfless gave them peace.

I used to think they were full of crap, but the mushroom has taught me that maybe this is not so.  Many people who use mushrooms strive to reach "ego-loss" from them because it can give one an absolutely wonderful feeling.  Perhaps the people who give so selflessly of their selves really have reached a similar state of ego-loss which does bring them peace.

Is this what "karma" really is?

Or was I right to think it's just a load of crap?

:stash: + :stoned: = :confused: 

Peace, :laugh:

RebelSteve 


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Namaste.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1682699 - 07/03/03 05:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i think that *most* people help others for selfish reasons; they expect some type of reward, physical or otherwise. some people do it because they want to go to heaven, or be reborn as a rich corporate executive...personally i think all that's bullshit.

the most we can hope to expect after death is a random, seemingly endless array of life experience patterns as all energy circulates throughout creation's collective dna strand.  :thumbup:

anything else would just be unScientific and therfore FALSE.  :thumbdown: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1682764 - 07/03/03 06:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I find it spiritually rewarding to help other people including animals. I think the feeling from having helped ease another's suffering has an intrinsic reward. In comparison I find eg. status, money or having things very shallow.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1682834 - 07/03/03 07:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think it's like this: we are all patterns of information, nothing more, and nothing less. These patterns are created and re-created in each new moment. Some patterns disappear quickly, others keep reappearing. Patterns that have such effects on their environment as to make the same patterns reappear again, are exactly the patterns that have the quality we call "self". That includes radio waves, atoms, and on a higher level genetic information, and on a much higher level, you and me.

When you help another being, you become part of a similar pattern on an even higher level. You elevate the life patterns to a new level of existance, you actually participate in the creation of this new level. This is true regardless of whether your true motive is selfish or not. But the less you think about pleasing your own self (although for a human this can't be entirely avoided, it's part of the package), the more you will become aware and conscious of these higher levels. And that helps to destroy the depressing feeling that you're just a lost soul swimming in a fish bowl year after year.

That's my take on what spirituality means, in a nutshell :nut:, and how it all hangs together. I hope it wasn't totally incomprehensible.     


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1682885 - 07/03/03 07:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

wow good post Rhizoid!


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1683015 - 07/03/03 09:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have to say that lately The same feeling has been popping out in me, I was one never to engage in any help organizations etc, but I feel something in me now that I want to help others, not to make me feel better or boost my image of a good person.
But almost a sense of retribution, Life has been good to me so far, and I have extra time and some surplus.
The few times I selflessly helped some one, the experience left me with a feeling hard to describe, very fulfilling like I was able to transcend my own little bubble into something bigger than my self.
Rebel I don?t think you are wrong I think you are right the shroomies taught me the same lesson.
For those who think is crap I think you have to distinguish what is a real act born from your heart and one born from your ego.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1683220 - 07/03/03 10:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"Put others first; you yourself come next. This works even from a selfish viewpoint. Let me explain how this is possible. You want happiness and do not want suffering, and if you show other people kindness, love, and respect, they will respond in kind; this way your happiness will increase. If you show other people anger and hatred, they will show you the same, and you will lose your own happiness. So I say, if you are selfish, you should be wisely selfish. Ordinary selfishness focuses only on your own needs, but if you are wisely selfish, you will treat others just as well as you treat those close to you. Ultimately, this strategy will produce more satisfaction, more happiness. So, even from a selfish viewpoint, you get better results by respecting others, serving others, and reducing self-centeredness."

- H.H. XIV Dalai Lama, How to Practice, p.81, "Extending Help"


There seems to be a lot of Buddhism floating around this forum. Sometimes I'll open up a thread and throw my head back in laughter because a casual question will be asked, an observation made, and it will look like something the Buddha himself articulated in his recorded scripture. That's very inspiring. My own psychedelic experiences, I suppose, are what attracted me to Buddhism in the first place.

Remarkable.

I'll throw in my own bit as well. Coming out of the store with a sandwhich and a few dollars in change for the homeless person crouched outside will brightly illuminate the rest of my day. The same is true when somebody else extends a helping hand to me when I need it. Even a kind remark coming in my direction from a stranger will impact the perspective I have on my activities for a long while.

When considering this, imagine how much better a world it would be if we all behaved this way. This selfless, altruistic way.

Karma can be thought of in many different ways. In a more practical sense, it's reasonable to say that all pleasure and pain depend on karmas, or former actions that have created predispositions in the mind. Karma can be divided into virtuous and non-virtuous acts according to whether they produce pleasure or pain in the long run. For instance, if the effect of an action is to establish comfort and peace for someone less fortunate than you, then that action is virtuous because its long-term effect is a good transmigration. Conversely, if the effect of an action is to cause another person to feel terrible, then that action is non-virtuous because it's long term effect is a bad transmigration.

Transmigration can be thought of as one moment to the next, if the idea of reincarnation does not appeal to you. Our bodies are always changing. Molecules are breaking apart, cells are dying, new ones are being born. Every event we observe, no matter how minor, impacts the continued development of our personality. In this way, we are being constantly reborn with each passing instant. For us to extend disparagement to another creature is, as the Dalai Lama said, to simultaneously cause equal unrest to our own inner peace. The next instant, therefore, we are "reborn" in a situation less favourable to lasting peace. By the same token, for us to extend loving kindness to another creature is to cause our transmigration into a situation much more favourable to lasting peace.

Since some people are born into luxury while others are born into poverty, it is supposed that this is a result of negative karma in the previous life of the affected creature. This is where the idea of reincarnation comes from. It is an extension of the logic detailed above beyond the confines of a single lifespan.

Buddhists believe that deep within every creature is the "Buddha nature". This means that all of us are fundamentally selfless, loving creatures. What interferes with the ability of this "light" to "shine" are what they've labelled "afflictive emotions." Afflictive emotions untame our minds, and cause our self-pictures and perceptions to become profoundly distorted. With meditative practice, and constant attention paid to the benefit of others, gradually the Buddha nature is encouraged to exhibit itself. It can be thought of as wiping the grime off a lightbulb.

This is why, I suppose, it is foolish to believe that "enlightenment" can be attained by chomping down on magic mushrooms. While certainly they can guide our ego down into that white-washed, shining trueness, all that grime remains after we resurface. Endeavouring toward enlightenment this way would be no different than washing a bowl in a pond covered with slime.

Psychedelics are often described as tools of exlporing "inner space", a way of "diving down deep" into one's self. Down past all those layers of fear, self-deceit and posturing, one could say, supposedly arriving at one's "truer self." If Buddhists are accurate in what they believe, then the "truer self" can be labelled "Buddha nature". Perhaps, RebelSteve, this is where you found your altruistic realization.


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Offlinetrippinlizard
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: Ped]
    #1683408 - 07/03/03 11:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Adamist said: the most we can hope to expect after death is a random, seemingly endless array of life experience patterns as all energy circulates throughout creation's collective dna strand. 

lol, i've experienced this. :grin:


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.


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Offlinelateralus
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1683534 - 07/03/03 11:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I see charity as an act of redistribution and guilt.

Redistribution because people accept on some level that we are all equal and no one person deserves more than another (no matter how hard they work for more). Guilt because they havent been true to this in their own lifestyles and actions.


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Offlinetrippinlizard
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: lateralus]
    #1683547 - 07/03/03 11:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

that's a good look at it: they realize they think they _should_ give until equality is reached, but they're guilty because they also realize they would never give that much, after all they believe it is theirs


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Giving of Your Self [Re: Ped]
    #1684062 - 07/03/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well said, Ped.

I will never be a "real" buddhist, because I'm too allergic to organized religion. And still, at the same time, I have a lot of respect for organized religion because it has brought to me the words of Shakyamuni Buddha and the words of Jesus the son of Josef.

I have had visions of the Buddha in a mushroom trip, or rather a vision of the Buddha that is actually me and has always been me all the time. And when the vision ended I thought, cherish this thought when you come down, because you have just experienced something wonderful.

It's a psychological projection obviously, but it's not obvious in which direction the projection goes. Think about that for a while. :wink:
 


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