DJ_avocado said:

extreme said:

It is my OPINION that if there were a God, it should have no reason to care about us (deism) but it does (not deism) because when I look at this being's creation of the universe and everything within it, I can't help but think it cares at least a little about everything it has created.

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But that's exactly why agnosticism is fucking whack, because "GOD" doesn't "Care".  Caring is a human quality.  GOD has no interest, no concern, no motivation, in existence because to attribute anything to a "higher power" is just putting yourself in GOD's shoes.  What would "GOD" care if "he" is truly immortal?  And what GOD is mortal?  The whole thing is fucking whack and it anthropomorphizes GOD, just by trying to communicate "GOD" you humanize it.

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extreme said:

DJ_avocado said:

Either say you do, or don't.

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What if you don't know?

I don't say it to be the happy middle man for everyone, I say it because that's all I feel I can possibly know in this lifetime.

Religion or lack thereof shouldn't be an opinion.  But from theism to deism to atheism, they're all opinions of some sort, in the way I interpret the meaning of each.

It is my OPINION that if there were a God, it should have no reason to care about us (deism) but it does (not deism) because when I look at this being's creation of the universe and everything within it, I can't help but think it cares at least a little about everything it has created.

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This is the first part of my quote.  Above my opinion you can clearly see my opinion on opinions, which is I see no place for them in a belief system.  I talked about the way humans interpret and misinterpret text in this thread too

ArtieFartie said:

extreme said:

my religion is LSD, anyone wanna join?

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Bro,
You know I'm in!

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Nice I'm not alone!

DivineIntensity said:

I'll join once I'm able to find some lucy

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DJ_avocado said:

I've been Buddhist for a long time now, and "Buddhisim" was never a religion.  I guess my issue is that I see agnosticism as being kind of half ass religion that is really just rebranding "common sense".

To me it is a religion because it takes the belief that "we will never know" or "we will never understand".  Well what if GOD came down and set things straight for Earth??  That would be fucking intense and if you saw it with your own eyes, there would be a real good reason to believe. But believe in what?  Wouldn't really be believing then...

The meaning of religion means to re-connect (re-ligares), agnosticism makes absolutely no distinction at all, just sits on the fence.  Why even?  Wasn't "I don't know" a good enough answer?

I guess I misunderstood you extreme.

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Religion is more of a set of practices rather than just belief... Just because you believe something doesn't make it a religion. And if God came down and set shit straight on earth I think everybody would change how they felt about god .

And he didn't say "we'll never know" he said it's unlikely in his lifetime. Are you reading everything he's saying?

DJ_avocado said:

I've been Buddhist for a long time now, and "Buddhisim" was never a religion.  I guess my issue is that I see agnosticism as being kind of half ass religion that is really just rebranding "common sense".

To me it is a religion because it takes the belief that "we will never know" or "we will never understand".  Well what if GOD came down and set things straight for Earth??  That would be fucking intense and if you saw it with your own eyes, there would be a real good reason to believe. But believe in what?  Wouldn't really be believing then...

The meaning of religion means to re-connect (re-ligares), agnosticism makes absolutely no distinction at all, just sits on the fence.  Why even?  Wasn't "I don't know" a good enough answer?

I guess I misunderstood you extreme.

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It's kewl,

but this really kinda gets at the WHY I guess..

I would only even define myself as agnostic to most people because what most people think of when they think of what agnostic means is probably the closest and easiest way to describe my beliefs to another person.  But as I mentioned earlier, thoughts/ideas/feelings are infinitely more difficult to communicate to others as compared to instructions and exacts.  Science, math, etc are filled with exacts that can't be disputed.  For these, communication is a great teacher because it can teach everyone the same way and produce the same successful results.  Very reliable.  But I could write a thousand page book and not describe the way my beliefs work in full to anyone.  While reading, the reader would likely implicate their own beliefs, ideas, etc and get a twisted vision.  Or they might get it damn near right, but not perfect, because nobody can live inside my brain.  Shit even I don't really know what my beliefs are exactly.  Oh wait that's why if I had to describe it all in one word that's why I choose agnostic

In a few short sentences, it would be more like "I don't claim to know.  Was raised Christian.  Taken some ideals of Jesus as my own morals.  Added to them certain Buddhist principles.  I still don't know for sure though which is 100% right."

DivineIntensity said:

Religion is more of a set of practices rather than just belief... Just because you believe something doesn't make it a religion. And if God came down and set shit straight on earth I think everybody would change how they felt about god

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extreme said:

I would only even define myself as agnostic to most people because what most people think of when they think of what agnostic means is probably the closest and easiest way to describe my beliefs to another person.  But as I mentioned earlier, thoughts/ideas/feelings are infinitely more difficult to communicate to others as compared to instructions and exacts.  Science, math, etc are filled with exacts that can't be disputed.  For these, communication is a great teacher because it can teach everyone the same way and produce the same successful results.  Very reliable.  But I could write a thousand page book and not describe the way my beliefs work in full to anyone.  While reading, the reader would likely implicate their own beliefs, ideas, etc and get a twisted vision.  Or they might get it damn near right, but not perfect, because nobody can live inside my brain.  Shit even I don't really know what my beliefs are exactly.  Oh wait that's why if I had to describe it all in one word that's why I choose agnostic

In a few short sentences, it would be more like "I don't claim to know.  Was raised Christian.  Taken some ideals of Jesus as my own morals.  Added to them certain Buddhist principles.  I still don't know for sure though which is 100% right."

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DivineIntensity said:

I don't believe anything though? I just don't know - er go why I'm given the title of agnostic...

How is that a set of beliefs?

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Agnosticism doesn't recognize or reject the fact that there is a higher power.  It is a belief that "maybe" there is one, we just don't know.  To me that is considered a belief and just as ridiculous as picking "yes" or "no".

There is no line between faith and gullibility.  Either you believe or you don't and agnosticism makes "I don't know" seem like a belief to me.

Oh yea, I guess you didn't say that you were agnostic... Not attacking anybody here.

DJ_avocado said:

DivineIntensity said:

Religion is more of a set of practices rather than just belief... Just because you believe something doesn't make it a religion. And if God came down and set shit straight on earth I think everybody would change how they felt about god

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I've always defined religion as a system of beliefs AND practices.  Religion is very ritualistic, but at the core is a belief.  The agnostic "belief" is "I don't know", so I think of it as a religion similar to atheism.

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Honestly man I think I really see where you're coming from, I just think the way we define what beliefs are is different.  I don't think the way we define it is even necessarily more right than the others.. but it again proves how delicate communication is when trying to convey such messages.

Because of the way you define religion, you don't see agnostic as as good of a term to describe it as say atheism, because you include ritualism as a part of religion.  I guess I kind of view that the same even with religion, but that's why I don't see agnosticism as a religion or anything, just a belief.

Seriously gotta open up the dictionary when you start discussing beliefs haha.  Luckily most of the people keeping this going seem to be intelligent individuals capable of that understanding

DJ_avocado said:

extreme said:

I would only even define myself as agnostic to most people because what most people think of when they think of what agnostic means is probably the closest and easiest way to describe my beliefs to another person.  But as I mentioned earlier, thoughts/ideas/feelings are infinitely more difficult to communicate to others as compared to instructions and exacts.  Science, math, etc are filled with exacts that can't be disputed.  For these, communication is a great teacher because it can teach everyone the same way and produce the same successful results.  Very reliable.  But I could write a thousand page book and not describe the way my beliefs work in full to anyone.  While reading, the reader would likely implicate their own beliefs, ideas, etc and get a twisted vision.  Or they might get it damn near right, but not perfect, because nobody can live inside my brain.  Shit even I don't really know what my beliefs are exactly.  Oh wait that's why if I had to describe it all in one word that's why I choose agnostic

In a few short sentences, it would be more like "I don't claim to know.  Was raised Christian.  Taken some ideals of Jesus as my own morals.  Added to them certain Buddhist principles.  I still don't know for sure though which is 100% right."

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It can be impossible to relate your beliefs to another person, why bother?  Usually if a stranger asks me religious questions, I'll just say, "I don't know".  I don't tell them I'm buddhist and try to back myself up somehow, "I don't know" makes sense to me.  People get fucking confused if you simply say "I don't know".

My BEEEF with being "Agnostic" is that why can't you just say, "I don't know" or "I don't believe".  In actuality, we DON'T know, and agnosticism just recognizes that.  The fact that we "don't know" is a fact as of now, there's nothing more to add to it.

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haha can't keep up

but that's a good point.. here's my answer.  why do i try to relate my beliefs if they are impossible to explain?  why bother?  well i would use the term agnostic with someone if they asked for my beliefs, because as a short answer, it would be much easier to just tell someone that than what I ACTUALLY believe haha.  we're seeing that now matter of fact!

I also agree that for the most part, agnosticism should be common sense.  just remember there are many people that's minds haven't been stretched even a fraction as far as some of the lengths we've taken our consciuosness.  taking apart your ego and the like are things that most humans will never even come close to experiencing.  i'm willing to bet a good number of people around here though could tell you a little something about that though.

i mean until my first acid trip i was somewhat a fence sitter in the same right, but a tad more Christian then than I am now.  but that first trip, where in the end as the colors were fading and it was time for sleep and i was left with only my thoughts and i started thinking of fun things to contemplate while under this particular influence, i chose to think about religion.

oh boy this was kind of a big event in my life *catches breath*

as i lay there i finally focused into these real realities.  i didn't think for the benefit of myself, i thought completely objectively.  it was the first time i noticed the deconditioning.  the first time i was really able to let go of a certain God in particular over another.  and it was kind of easy.  i wasn't reforming ANOTHER belief on top of my preexisting one.. i was just terminating the one that I had been given at a very young age.  i simply went back to nothing again.  maybe you could almost call me atheist, but i wouldn't define myself with that, because i don't believe it's possible to say 100% that a higher power does NOT exist

Hope you know DJ I have no beef with you here or anything   just trying to clear up this confusing mess hehe.  it's been fun discussing this all day/night