Not Quite Social said:

you are wrong. 

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zappaisgod said:

The quality of life for poor people has improved greatly over my lifetime but it has nothing to do with increased handouts.

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imachavel said:

why is jimmy carter and Obama in the top worst U.S. presidents but not George Bush.

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Because you need to spend more time scrutinizing your sources. It's simply the opinion of some talk-radio dude down in Louisiana. So what.

zappaisgod said:

Loan guarantees are not loans.  Loans are not gifts.  Of the TARP money that stayed within the bounds of the banking industry just about every entity of size has repaid any money received resulting in a net taxpayer profit from bailing out banks, many of which never needed the money in the firat place but which were forced to take it in order to protect the status of the banks that did.

AIG is not a bank and needed the bailout but is also close to repaying its loan.  With interest.  This will not happen with the auto unions that were improperly gifted from funds set aside for the banking industry.

I do not understand all the outrage over the Fed stabilizing the industry and acting as a guarantor.  Isn't that what the government is supposed to do?  And never never lose sight of the fact that the banks never would have had a problem if the government didn't force them to lend to bums in the first place or that the bums not repaying the money are the root cause of the entire problem.

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zappa... you know what i love about you zappa.. you hear what you want to hear... Alison Stewart clearly says MOST of these funds were guarantees... most meaning majority, this means SOME were in the form of loans or out right handouts, since she and Irvy mentioned handouts... what doesn't disturb you about your precious federal reserve... what gives them the right to defy two federal judges decisions to open their books to qualified auditors? this is exactly what Pittman wanted and the judges said they agreed... how is it possible for them to say no? how are they above US law? how much of of the 12.8 trillion was in the form of a loan or an outright giveaway? how is it the fed can print money without approval from someone? are we on the hook for this money? a lot of banking systems went under and many more were bought by banks like Goldman Sach's... did Goldman buy up all of the jewels? I'd bet the fucking ranch they did... these banks were propped up and picked up for the cheap by banks like Goldman... and you have no fucking problem wit this...........


i sent bob irvy a well written email asking him if there is a resource to learn more about the details... and i explained to him i'm dealing with someone who worships the fed so hopefully this will motivate him to reach out to me... if he does get back to me i'll cut and paste the details and leave it up to you at that point, but don't try to say they were only guarantees when they clearly weren't. i've been a fan for the show NEED TO KNOW like for fucking ever... their level of reporting issues is beyond anything out there... you should check it out... well maybe you won't get into it because it's underwritten by PBS and we all know PBS sucks according to republicans that want to completely remove it's federal funding... thank the great spirit itself that viewers are doing their best to preserve the entire network...

and i'm gonna answer you're question regarding the market being a zero sum game a little later on... i have things to do right now... you're gonna love it!!!


Kensho

imachavel said:

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/buzz/latest-buzz/316341-obama-gets-title-worst-us-president-in-history

why is jimmy carter and Obama in the top worst U.S. presidents but not George Bush. ALL the bail outs were retarded. We did not ever depend on all the companies simply because they were in the s&p 500, some we did really want, some huge companies give the world cars, etc. But this did not mean, that if you were Donald trump, that you deserved to just get a nice hand out, the world was in chaos on the brink, and no one in the world needs the nicest hotels in the world.

from another perspective the biggest businesses provide the most jobs, but for whom? Should wall mart get bailed out? Well maybe. If trump towers got shut down, could people find another hotel to stay in?? YES! and what sucks, the system showed how corrupt it was, people paying for things should be allowed to keep what they have. Even during bail out time structures were being torn down and new ones put up. Even right now I see new mansions being built all around my city. I guess rich people need to keep spending money and poor people need to keep losing it.

Have you noticed? The quality for poor people keeps lowering, and for rich people keeps rising. Not everyone is suffering through this. I know zappa thinks he is robin hood or something, but just because someone owns a business doesn't mean they do shit, it doesn't mean they contribute. Some people own businesses and simply bought out another company, are new owners, hire new managers, and run a decent company into the ground. If I start a 7-11, and run it into the ground, why in the fucking world should I get a bail out? I probably won't? But if I own every 7 11 in the world, then I for sure get a bail out.

hypocrisy much?

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the standard of living has failed the middle class as well as the poor... if you adjust for inflation American middle class are earning less now then ever before... it's just getting progressively worse and guys like zappa are freaking out leave me the fuck alone with just cause, because things have deteriorated so badly we need to raise taxes the problem is the rich will not bare their fair share... Adam Smith is credited with creating the capitalist model... in it he clearly stated there must be a progressive tax rate in order to provide for a growing society but scumbags like Friedman and Greenspan and the rest of that ilk, what a word, ilk... like a fucking bad taste in your mouth!! yeah, their ilk... saying this tax system was long out dated and they have a new model to follow and worship... worship at the alter of the rich man.... like Greenspan said, his reality... his reality has turned out to be quite the fucking nightmare for my country... and i'm using the word my now to drive home how personal i'm taking this... fucking scumbags... and now they want to completely dismantle our government... the only thing they are interested in expanding is our military... fuck every social program...


maybe if there was a real attempt to determine what tax policies and social issues were important to the people instead of letting scumbags who spend 5 hours or more of their working day in office generating money for their next campaign and focused on real issues we'd be better served... yeah, that's the fucking ticket... that's what i think... god i've avoided this forum for this very reason... this gut wrenching feeling i get trying to reason with fearful men who are worried about their pitiful accomplishments in the big picture because when the shit hits the fan they'll be on soup lines too if they haven't covered all of their bases... base on the economists i respect we're in for quite a ride, unlike anything the world has ever seen before... am i being paranoid now? nope... i'm being a fucking realist!

Kensho

cateyes said:

it's just getting progressively worse and guys like zappa are freaking out leave me the fuck alone with just cause, because things have deteriorated so badly we need to raise taxes the problem is the rich will not bare their fair share...

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Shill said:

zappaisgod said:

The quality of life for poor people has improved greatly over my lifetime but it has nothing to do with increased handouts.

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Most definately.

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i'm not sure i get by saying most definitely Shill... do our poor have a higher level of living standard then someone in Ethiopia? sure, no TV's in Ethiopia but explain yourself... what are some of the real advances we've made regarding the poor? i have respect for you so i'm expecting nothing but the best logic here... not some zappa logic that their eating cornflakes every so often or there's more a higher rate of food stamps... because food stamps are a direct result of the job creators not creating a single fucking job! where the fuck are these fucking jobs?!?!? how low do we have to lower taxes for the job creators to begin creating jobs here instead of creating them in Asia??? because this is exactly where the job creators have been creating fucking jobs...


Kensho

cateyes said:

where the fuck are these fucking jobs?!?!?

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It's not as if there's some natural law that dictates that there always must be a corresponding amount of jobs to the amount of people who are looking to work. In fact, natural laws actually point in the opposite direction of this. It's not possible to just say "poof! more jobs for everyone!".

fireworks_god said:

cateyes said:

it's just getting progressively worse and guys like zappa are freaking out leave me the fuck alone with just cause, because things have deteriorated so badly we need to raise taxes the problem is the rich will not bare their fair share...

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How does one determine what constitutes a fair share? My impression was that the rich were already footing the bill for the vast majority of taxes.

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we could sit here and ponder what would be fair for them to pay like for ever and ever... what would be fair? go back to the system that smith proposed... you know the fucking one that seemed to be working out fine for like for fucking ever!!! i'm not going to get into a debate with you over this... let's just say if your really feel the rich are paying too much already.. then fine, they're  paying too fucking much... this is exactly how much i want to ponder this with you... and your attitude is exactly what they want... it's like the Koch brothers propping up the tea party... fucking beautiful scam... get frightened middle class to fight for what is rightfully theirs in order to develop consensus strong enough to protect a perverse ideology... Greenspan himself admitted he made serious mistakes in the book i put out there for everyone to read, but he's not willing to admit that there was merit in what smith laid out there... why was it so cool to follow up until the 80's is quite revealing when you read the book. when the men who made the policy decisions are confronted in the interviews... so yeah, reinstall the progressive tax system if you're going to insist this is capitalism the way smith created it to be or shut the fuck up about capitalism... call it a free for all system... there's a word for this system you know... do you know what they called it in the past? and i'm not coming up with an answer.. it's sort of a perverse rhetorical question...


so have a fucking great day... i'm going to go to my usual hang out because i'm all tripped over now... i wish i still smoked weed because i need some chill right now...


Kensho

Shill said:

I dunno why they always throw him under the bus.

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luvdemshrooms said:

Shill said:

I dunno why they always throw him under the bus.

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Because he points out unpleasant truths to those who have no wish to hear them. Consistently and persistently.

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Guess that's why they're obama supporters.

Shill said:

The over availability of food around every corner.

The availablility of social services, at every corner... especially in the ghettos.

The mass production of goods, such as clothes and other necessities available very cheap/free to the poor.



Do I dare say?

I do, Corporations made it possible.


Not really much to explain, you just have to analyze the progression of humans over the past 100 years.

And we're not talking about Ethiopa anyway.

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all of this has been present in the past... maybe they added new social programs.. and how have corporations done anything? if corporations were behind it where are they now? it was the middle class working machine that provided these programs and this progress... when a corporation gets involved it's written off from a tax stand point and grass roots continues running it... clothing and other necessities are cheap and abundant because of cheap world labor. if this is where your head is at, very cool... i have no reason to get all bent out of shape out of a need for the system... i've done quite well for myself even considering the past 8 years or so... i loo at things from a practical stand point... we're a society, we always were, only now we're faced with dismantling a social net when other countries are quickly developing theirs... something is wrong with our society... and you're giving corporations way, way too much credit...


i remember years ago i did election work for john haeglin(sp?). he ran under the natural law party and he had incredible vision for a real future where countries would look at the US in real admiration instead of fear... his problem was he admitted to using hallucinogens and suggested our children meditate for 30 minutes out of each work day... pat robertson called him a product of satan saying he was flat out assaulting the fabric of our society with secularism... he was brilliant and if he was ever elected we would be a different society altogether....

and yes, zappa is a smart guy on some levels but he spews rhetoric that suits him... are you denying there is a problem with the fed now? what are we agoing to do with our poor once we do away with all the social infrastructure the way zappa and paul ryan and gingrich propose? what happens to them? like i said, my home's paid for, we have a home in the pacific north west property in Arizona... i'm sitting on the right investments... i did all of the right things thank the great spirit i had guidance... but all in all i refuse to turn my back on them... and the fucking job creators are creating jobs elsewhere... what exactly wrong with this picture? why are you embracing something so perverse?


anyway, i've pretty much had it with this forum other then answering zappa's zero sum game thee wall street market game... the ultimate ponzi scheme and i'm fucking in it!!!!


and now we have newt against romney... this is going to be interesting to see if the conservatives cab gain control again now that perry is out of it... why does romney repulse a conservative... other then his health care program he's just like them...

and i'm not an obama supporter... yes, i'm a registered Republican who thought he's be a real difference sop i voted  for him... but who do i vote for now? and it's funny in a way, you guys are saying i'm atatcking zappa when the entire thread was on the bailouts and i produced two videos that stated 12.8 TRILLION was either guaranteed, loaned or given freely and all you can fucking think about is me attacking zappa


what is wrong with this picture? how did we go from missing 12.8 trillion dollars to me attacking zappa? how does a thread with a very serious theme get high jacked like this? i'm gonna take a break from here again, i'll just answer zappa's zero sum game question and if Bob Ivey returns my email to him i'll let you all know where the 12.8 trillion dollars went... i'm really hoping he pulls through foe me...


Kensho