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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: trekie]
    #14879121 -

Unemployement of 9,1 % , you're kidding. Thats what they are reporting,however  the REAL unemployment rate is more like 16-20%.  don't forget that they started including armed forces in the unemployment figures in the 90's. before that they didn't.

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: unam sanctum]
    #14879153 -

it's the established system at current, and while it is not perfect (most things often aren't), it's what america has to work with.


i have no problem investing as long as it ends up paying dividends. yes private institutions and central banks are run for profit. what isn't these days? the thing is these key economic functions that are undertaken by central banks, need to be kept close to the government, where there is more control over them. calls of ' cutting red tape ' and ' de-regulation ' should always be viewed with caution. yes it's cliche, but look at enron.


but my previous points aren't in relation to private/public institutions being run for profit, i'm saying the central banks are key to each countries economy at current, as they regulate monetary policy for each nation (atleast in the west). they control interest rates, attempt to regulate and maintain stability of both the currency and the economy.


i don't really see any other option to the current system to be honest. it is so well entrenched and established that it's sort of too significant of a change to be made.


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Dosile Kouki]
    #14879271 -

unam sanctum said:
all of this because of a centralized banking system...



FACT.

I've come to the conclusion that "our" government is working for our creditors. They're deliberately accumulating debt in order to drive us into bankruptcy so that they can foreclose on the country.

All US dollars are borrowed into existence at interest. Therefore there is always more debt than money. The Federal Reserve creates "money" out of nothing for the cost of the ink and paper. Once there is more debt than can ever be paid back, they can take real property for nothing more than the cost of printing green paper.

This whole debate about the debt ceiling was nothing more than a sham, and its whole intent was to dig us deeper into the hole.
DosileFlynn said:
thats the way things have always been, and it's the way majority of the world operates also. it's just things have gotten a bit out of control. national debt and current/capital account deficits are generally not much of a problem as long as they are kept inline with inflation. the dollar figure is generally not the issue.


people calling for the removal of central banks are short sighted and unrealistic. it is the lynch pin and keystone to each countries finiancial system, and has been for decades. they co-ordinate the world economies and link the world economies. it is simply not realistic to say ' remove the central banks ' , because then how would the worlds economies function?


it's like people who say ' there should be no government '. yes, thats all well and good, but what do you do once you've removed the government? let it spiral down into survival of the fittest?


there is no point recomending such a change without atleast providing for an alternative solution, it's just like the war in iraq. ' we're gone kill saddam and get them weapons 'a mass destruction ...... and we ain't gone do shit afterwards to fix it '. one step forward and two steps back.



The alternative solution would be for the Treasury to print debt free "treasury notes" for our expenses instead of borrowing Federal Reserve Notes.

Of course then there is always the arguement about inflation from printing fiat currency. But we've been doing that for the last 98 years anyway. At least we'd just have the inflation from printing money, rather than the inflation of printing fiat money plus compound interest on top of it.

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Yacub]
    #14879286 -

to be honest i am unsure as to the effect that would have on an economy. i'd be interested to hear more on the topic though?


it still doesn't solve the other key functions of central banks - i.e. it still leaves the other key functions of hte central bank unaccounted for.


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Dosile Kouki]
    #14879331 -

So, what are "the other key functions of the central bank" besides charging us interest for money that we could issue ourselves debt free ? Is there really anything that they can do that the Treasury Dept. can't do ?

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Yacub]
    #14879376 -

well, interest rates and printing money are their two main levers. it is important to note that all of the fed's levers need to be manipulated in unison, presenting a unified front. it woudl be counter intuitive for printing to be handled by one entity and interest rates by another. the other important thing to note is the current accounts of the nation and open market operations undertaken by the fed to stabilize/inflate the currency. sure the roll could be transferred to the treasury, and may even be a positive move to do so. but at the end of the day it will still be more or less, the same system in a different suit. and american treasurer's don't really have the greatest track records.


i'm sure the interest has a purpose and is put there for a reason, i do not know a whole lot on that specific area, thus why i was asking for you to provide more info on it.


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Dosile Kouki]
    #14880704 -

This one time.....at S&P camp......I totally stuck a flute up my ass and whistled you a sad goodbye superpower song.  Enjoy the depressions people, put your money in gold and buy bullets and water bottles.


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:awesome:

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Irishdrunk]
    #14880712 -

If our market is the only one that crashes, gold would be solid. However, our market directly effects the world market in a significant manner. Any volatility here will effect the global economy in a negative manner and gold might be worthless. I think you're best bet is to invest in a stable currency and hope it only effects us.


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Yacub]
    #14880716 -

Yacub said:
So, what are "the other key functions of the central bank" besides charging us interest for money that we could issue ourselves debt free ? Is there really anything that they can do that the Treasury Dept. can't do ?



You print more money and your dollar weakens, your inflation rises, and the world changes from US dollars to another currency for which all other currencies are compared.  And that would also fuck the entire world who have investments in US currency and bonds.  DO IT!!!!  Rome must fall, Emperor Pris must be defeated!


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:awesome:

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14880729 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
If our market is the only one that crashes, gold would be solid. However, our market directly effects the world market in a significant manner. Any volatility here will effect the global economy in a negative manner and gold might be worthless. I think you're best bet is to invest in a stable currency and hope it only effects us.



Initially gold would be a safe haven for US investors, so it will go up before they switch the USD, the standard which all other currencies are compared, to a more stable currency.  Then gold would go down as all the world begins trading in Swiss franks or some shit.

Sucks for Canada though, you're our largest trading partner and you owe our banks a ton of cash.  Maybe you could sell us Washington State and Minnesota, no one will miss them.


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:awesome:

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Irishdrunk]
    #14880794 -

Irishdrunk said:
This one time.....at S&P camp......I totally stuck a flute up my ass and whistled you a sad goodbye superpower song.  Enjoy the depressions people, put your money in gold and buy bullets and water bottles.



that's the idea

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Irishdrunk]
    #14880811 -

That's what I was going to suggest, invest in the Swiss Frank. Who knows, maybe we will all come out of this a better species. Hell, maybe nothing significant will happen at all. It is all just wait and see at this point.


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14881757 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
If our market is the only one that crashes, gold would be solid. However, our market directly effects the world market in a significant manner. Any volatility here will effect the global economy in a negative manner and gold might be worthless. I think you're best bet is to invest in a stable currency and hope it only effects us.



it will be a global crisis definately, it hasn't reached its deepest yet and stock exchanges are already dropping 5% and $50billion in one day. and america has to re-negotiate is sharty default deal in like 6-8 months because they made a sharty deal.


i wouldn't be investing in anything at the moment. call me :tinfoil: but i wouldn't even really want my money in a bank at the moment. i think the safest place for money right now is in one of those new accounts they created after the gfc where it pays no interest but is insured dollar for dollar up to like 250k or something like that?? i don't know the specifics but yeah. steer clear of unstable institutions, and if you do invest, watch that shit like a hawk,


cos remember, you can get trapped with securities. i.e. you buy some crappy security, realise its shit, dropping quickly, you try to sell, but no one is buying it because its plumetting. thus you are stuck with the shit security and have to watch it's value freefall helplessly


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Dosile Kouki]
    #14890708 -

Dow plunges 630 points after S&P downgrade Aug 8 2011

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14890718 -

:trolldance:


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:awesome:

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Irishdrunk]
    #14891047 -

Well my credits been ufcked for years so I couldn't care less about the govs credit rating. They will simply have to learn to stop borrowing like I did, it takes me longer to get nice things I want but I appretiate them more by saving and paying cash.

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Morican] * 4
    #14891076 -

Obama blames the tea party lol

The only group trying to actually balance the budget gets the blame for the debt crisis. Our government is a fucking joke.


:ronpaul:


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #14891263 -

Quote:
Why Congress and S&P Deserve Each Other

Having Standard & Poor's downgrade the creditworthiness of the U.S., and warn the country about further downgrades, is a little like having the Catholic Church lecture Scout leaders on the proper behavior toward boys. The moral authority seems to be wanting. S&P, you may recall, is one of the ratings agencies (the others being Moody's and Fitch) that greased the skids of the financial crisis by awarding AAA ratings to tranche after tranche of mortgage bonds called collaterized debt obligations, or CDOs. Recall that, unlike U.S. Treasuries, backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S., CDOs were underwritten by garbage mortgages — that is, backed by no-documentation “liar loans” and other Alt-A subprime pond scum handed to borrowers who otherwise couldn't get a nickel's worth of credit at their local dry cleaner.

S&P stamped CDOs with the same grade it previously awarded to a precious few companies, including Exxon and Microsoft. More than 30,000 CDOs got the AAA blessing from the agencies. S&P couldn't pull its snout out of the trough even when it became apparent in 2007 that the mortgage bond pig-out was over. This e-mail from an S&P employee, uncovered by a congressional investigation, says it all: “Let's hope we are all wealthy and retired by the time this house of cards falters.” In their absorbing history of the financial crisis, The Devils Are All Here, Bethany McLean and Joe Nocera bared the behavior of the agencies. Even when their own analysts began sounding the alarm, senior management refused to stop the money machine. And if the analysts became insistent on being scrupulous, the agencies got new analysts. Why? Because their clients, big banks such as Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs, demanded that the CDO machine keep on cranking, until it utterly collapsed.

And let's be clear: this was all perfectly legal. “S&P's ratings do not speak to the market value of a security or the volatility of its price, and they are not recommendations to buy, sell or hold a security. They simply provide a tool for investors to use as they assess risk and differentiate credit quality of obligors and the debt they issue,” testified Rodney Clark, head of ratings services for S&P, to the House subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance and Government-Sponsored Enterprises. In other words, you can't take our word to the bank, but you can take it to the poorhouse. When investors like the Wyoming state pension system sued after many of the CDOs crashed in value, the industry stuck to this “It's just our opinion” defense and won. The U.S. Second Circuit Court of  Appeals ruled last August that the agencies were not “underwriters” or “control persons” even if they were in bed with them. The fundamental contradiction of the industry is that the companies that issue the securities pay the ratings agencies for their grades; independence is always suspect, and the courts upheld that.

One of many ironies of the S&P downgrade is that the three ratings agencies have so much power because the federal government, in the form of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), handed it to them. As former TIME writer Barbara Kiviat pointed out in this space, the power of the big ratings agencies dates to the post-Depression era, when the government increasingly relied on them to bless new issues for credit-wary investors. Then, in 1975, the SEC iced the cake, designating a number of companies as “nationally recognized statistical rating organizations,” or NRSROs. If  you were not an NRSO as a ratings agency, you were SOL. Why would anyone issue bonds rated by an agency that wasn't government-approved? The SEC designation had the unintended effect of creating a market lock for the bigger firms.

That S&P would slap the hand that legitimizes it is wonderfully perverse given last week's debt deal. The Tea Party supposedly hates Wall Street so much that it ignored warnings that its Taliban economic policy — threatening to decapitate the economy unless it got its way on spending cuts — would spook the markets, since the Street abhors uncertainty. For a moment, it looked as if the Tea team won, in that the market didn't tank as the deal wrangling went on and on. Instead, the market cratered post-deal, as the compromised compromise left so much up in the air. Republicans had been chastising the Obama Administration for creating uncertainty, yet they allowed their own radical wing to impose it for the foreseeable future. (Clearly, uncertainty about the resolution of Europe's sovereign debt crisis contributed to the market troubles too.) So S&P in effect fired a shot across the Tea Party's bow: You mess with Wall Street, you will be punished. It had another for Obama: Lead, follow or get out of the way. And the two parties blamed each other. “It happened on your watch, Mr. President,” screamed Michele Bachmann, exhibiting the full extent of her knowledge of economics. In making its decision, S&P said the downgrade “reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.”

Here's the other laughable irony: Congress had a chance to rein in the ratings agencies but demurred. Even though the statutory authority that gave S&P, Moody's and Fitch an oligopoly on ratings was complicit in their contribution to the crisis, Congress nevertheless refused to remove the NRSRO status. The solons bought the idea that smaller agencies would be crushed if an unfettered free market were imposed on the ratings industry. Funny, that didn't happen in the airline industry when it was deregulated. And by the way, can you name the fourth, fifth or sixth largest ratings agency? Republicans, heeding the deregulation call of their banking clients (whose demands for deregulation more than a decade ago, blessed by the Clinton Administration, led us down the path to the crisis), bent over backward to defang the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which was central to the Dodd-Frank bill, whose hilarious formal name is the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. Wall Street, having blown trillions during  the crisis, demanded not to be hampered by either reform or consumer protection as it recovered from the crisis. Why should the ratings agencies be so encumbered?

So here's our reward, America: higher costs for our mortgages and higher costs for the federal, state and local governments to borrow. As Fareed Zakaria points out in TIME's Aug. 15 cover story, a jump of a single percentage point in the interest rate the federal government pays will more than wipe out the savings anticipated by the debt deal. Nice work, that. And we owe it all to an ethically and intellectually suspect ratings agency. (S&P even made a $2.1 trillion error in its calculations but dismissed it as “nonmaterial.”)

Yet it has occurred to me that maybe S&P has a point. After all, this is a Congress that let the banking industry run amok, bailed it out with access to trillions of dollars of credit and has since done precious little to ensure that the process won't be repeated. Nor would Congress reform the ratings industry, which played a vital role in the crisis. Nor did it agree to a deal worked out between Obama and House Speaker John Boehner that would have preserved the AAA rating. If our Congress is that dumb, perhaps we deserved the downgrade.


http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/08/08/why-congress-and-sp-deserve-each-other/?hpt=hp_t2


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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #14913648 -



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:awesome:

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Re: US loses AAA credit rating after S&P downgrade [Re: Irishdrunk]
    #14913662 -

Washington slapped himself.

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