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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #13919366 -

I just skimmed through the thread, and if I were to position myself, I'd say I'm slightly more concerned than Annom, but nowhere near the level of hysteria Michael Rupert is talking about.  I heard a statistic somewhat recently that in 2007, America reached peak oil on the demand side, meaning that demand for oil has gone down steadily since then.  The world at large is expected to reach that point by about 2014.  This is good news, but we shouldn't rest on our laurels yet.  Frankly, I think we'll see the consequences of climate change before we get sideswiped by peak oil.  Alternative energy is great, and we definitely need those investments, but the biggest payback will be investments in efficiency, or as Amory Lovins refers to it, "negawatts."

As for the issue with growth, Annom mentioned that we haven't come anywhere near harvesting all the energy the sun brings to earth.  That is true, but it's not just energy that we have to look at.  There's soil depletion, loss of biodiversity, overfishing, excessive logging, mountain-top removal, toxic waste, landfills, urban sprawl, and a whole host of ecological indicators that are in decline.

So while some economic growth such as we would see from innovation is a good thing, we need to stop the growth in throughput.  Throughput basically means the ratio of resource inputs in an economy to the waste produced by economic activity.  We need to make economic throughput correlate with the carrying capacity of earth.  There's a few simple principles we can follow in order to do this:

1.  Don't use up renewable resources faster than their rate of renewal.

2.  Don't use up non-renewable resources faster than we can develop renewable alternatives.

3.  Don't create waste at a faster rate than natural waste sinks can absorb it.

I think if we follow those principles, we should be alright, so long as we make sure that no class of people has to shoulder an excessive degree of the burden.


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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Silversoul]
    #13919376 -

Alternative energy isnt a solve all. The north American continent has no ability for the production of the rare earth magnets vital to most of the technologies, China alone owns like 90% of the resources and production in that sector and theres not even enough to go around with current methods. The economy thrives on the cycle of production, consumption and destruction of products. Unless corporations fundamentally change there game plan and cleanse themselves of there voracious greed this switch to not so profitable alternative energy sources and the likes isnt going to go to smoothly or be exactly heralded in.

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #13919413 -

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Alternative energy isnt a solve all.


Indeed.  That's why I mentioned energy efficiency.  If we get more efficient at how we use energy, then there's less energy that we need to replace with alternatives.

Quote:
The economy thrives on the cycle of production, consumption and destruction of products.


For now, yes.  But when it comes to destruction of products, that's only profitable because we treat waste as free.  If it cost less to recycle or reuse the materials, companies would start doing that instead.  Some, like Interface, have already started doing this, and when other companies see it's profitable, they'll jump on board too.

Quote:
Unless corporations fundamentally change there game plan and cleanse themselves of there voracious greed this switch to not so profitable alternative energy sources and the likes isnt going to go to smoothly or be exactly heralded in.


Well, leaving aside the likelihood of the government funding alternative energy, some alternatives like wind and geothermal are already competitive with coal, and solar is catching up.  If the government rolled back subsidies to oil and coal, they'd be even more competitive.  There's a lot I'd like to change about corporations in America, but the idea that their greed is keeping alternatives out of the market simply doesn't hold up, unless we're specifically talking about fossil fuel industries lobbying to keep their subsidies.


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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Silversoul]
    #13919424 -

:niggawe:


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:niggawe::niggawe::niggawe::niggawe::Awesketch::niggawe::niggawe::niggawe:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: LisonAlGaib]
    #13920824 -

LisonAlGaib said:
That's why we're here.  We need to help our brothers and sisters through this time.  The more that make it out the better it will be for those who survive.  We are primates for fuck's sake, we need each other to advance.  Sun Tzu said,"Leaders lead by example , not by force".  This approach should be utilized to help educate and liberate those of our kind enslaved by the current system of waste and greed.  We are in a fragile precarious balance between technology and evolution, and if we keep our heads and show some compassion, I believe we can all make it out alive.


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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #13920853 -

Bodhi of Ankou said:
The north American continent has no ability for the production of the rare earth


This is completely false.  North America has great resources for rare earths.  The environmentalists forced the closure of almost all of the mines.  They are in the process of being reopened as we speak.

The only "alternative" energy worth pursuing is fusion.  Everything else is an inadequate drum circle of good feeling.


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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13920862 -

zappaisgod said:
Bodhi of Ankou said:
The north American continent has no ability for the production of the rare earth


This is completely false.  North America has great resources for rare earths.  The environmentalists forced the closure of almost all of the mines.  They are in the process of being reopened as we speak.

The only "alternative" energy worth pursuing is fusion.  Everything else is an inadequate drum circle of good feeling.


Oh shut up, I meant it has no current ability for production. Go be a prick elsewhere.

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #13921162 -

Bodhi of Ankou said:
zappaisgod said:
Bodhi of Ankou said:
The north American continent has no ability for the production of the rare earth


This is completely false.  North America has great resources for rare earths.  The environmentalists forced the closure of almost all of the mines.  They are in the process of being reopened as we speak.

The only "alternative" energy worth pursuing is fusion.  Everything else is an inadequate drum circle of good feeling.


Oh shut up, I meant it has no current ability for production. Go be a prick elsewhere.


No.  Suck it.


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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14090379 -

I watched "Collapse" a while ago. Then I took an interdisciplinary studies class at the college. It covered science, politics, environmental, and political issues of sustainability. We watched "Who Killed the Electric Car," (I would recommend) "An Inconvenient Truth," and some other horribly depressing documentaries. I also work in Environmental Sustainability, and watch businesses continually find ways around local environmental laws. That said, I will be very biased in this subject matter, but...

Things look pretty fucked right now. We can't produce enough electric cars that would be affordable/feasible in even putting a dent in our dependence on crude oil for transportation. Especially in America. Even if we did, they must be plugged in, which requires burning coal. Ethanol is a pure joke, because it takes about as much energy to produce as it would provide. Ie, 1:1 energy ratio. BTW, I hate getting into this discussion because it's so charged emotionally, but I just had to put in my two cents given the documentaries cited here.

If you would like to do the math and conversions (I hated answering this question in my class), go to the US energy dept. website and look up how much energy derived from coal America uses for electricity in one year alone. Granted, we do have a good amount of coal resources left, but it is one of the dirtiest forms of energy, releasing tons of harmful carbon into our atmosphere. We found that to replace our use of coal for electricity with 2 Megawatt wind turbines, it would cost 1/3 of the 2009 US Federal budget. With the way our budget looks now, I wouldn't expect to see your lights turn on with the help of sustainable energy any time soon.

My professor was in military intelligence for like 15 years, worked for the CIA, and I think the Pentagon for five years. Now he is working in sustainability as a study, and teaches a class solely on this subject. I dropped the class five weeks in because every answer to his weekly question set was the most depressing shit I've ever heard. Every hopeful alternative to the way we do things in an ever increasingly industrialized world was smashed to pathetic little bits in this class. There are some plans that could work theoretically, but how utterly inept our current government is in handling a crisis makes the little voice in the back of my head scream BULLSHIT.

I'm buying silver, trying to learn about edible plants in my area, and hiking a shitload. Tell me to go find my tinfoil if you will, but we don't have much of a chance in avoiding some kind of collapse in the next 10 years or so. I personally believe it's coming soon. That's why I hope all the dumb unaware people who will riot in the streets when shtf, will take care of themselves through panic induced chaos, and more of the smarter ones will be left. Then aliens will come back and beam us "worthy ones" up to a new planet, or fix this one. That's my fantasy scenario.

Now go back to sleep America, and keep worrying about Charlie Sheen and Justin Bieber.:rolleyes:


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All you see is an illusion, including my posts.

"Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible."
-Thich Nhat

Edited by guitardude3 (03/09/11 12:46 AM)

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: guitardude3] * 2
    #14090444 -

The whole society is diseased in the way it operates, like a virus programmed to burn through all the resources of earth at a exponentially increasing rate. We have the technologies, the means to avert this disaster but everyones so enamored to the methodology of the current system that funds will not flow fast enough or sufficiently to any of these projects.


Its a rather massive quagmire we have created for ourselves. most people dont realize the gravity of the situation.

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #14090473 -

Bodhi of Ankou said:
The whole society is diseased in the way it operates, like a virus programmed to burn through all the resources of earth at a exponentially increasing rate. We have the technologies, the means to avert this disaster but everyones so enamored to the methodology of the current system that funds will not flow fast enough or sufficiently to any of these projects.


Its a rather massive quagmire we have created for ourselves. most people dont realize the gravity of the situation.


Well, at least I don't feel totally alone now. I've shed my tears on this situation, and now I try to enjoy everything I can while trying to learn to adapt to coming changes. But who knows. I still think it's important to remain positive, and do what is right. Now more than ever, no matter how futile.


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All you see is an illusion, including my posts.

"Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible."
-Thich Nhat

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: guitardude3] * 2
    #14090558 -

Your not alone on this one, theres quite a number of us on this board that can see the outcome of the continuation of this broken lifestyle. Those that cling to the distractions of this society and ignore the state of decay are the only ones your gonna catch any flak from.

Ive been going out on hikes too, practicing identification, memorizing as much as I can. Im slowly building up a inner library of survival techniques. The only thing there is to do is adapt really, life is good as it is, theres no reason to be depressed over something you cant change the course of. Luckily I dont think were so stupid as to not learn from this eventual popoff and continue with the same society :lol:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14090596 -

people are just stuck in a stupid motion and they don't fel like there is any other way to move.

evolution and death are treated like dogs.

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14090680 -

I dont think most people even have the awareness that we dont have to live this way. I think making corporations non profit by law would be a catalyst for change, force them to pour there acquired wealth back into the community. I dont think its right at all for some CEO to have 5 billion sitting in his pocket to spend on whatever he pleases. Call me a commie w/e but I think there wages should have caps on them like any goverment worker when there GDP's are larger then that of developed nations.

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14090693 -

yeah, but don't those CEO's have the progress of the world in mind? :flowstone:

yeah, build yourself up to help everyone. yeah... something about that... makes me feel big and strong. :imslow:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14090701 -

There not regulated all to tightly or voted on, when you got that much influence globally on what direction were going I think it calls for the community voting on there decisions.






:flowstone:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14090703 -

it's not.... OUR JOB!








:lolsy: :curbyourenthusiasm: :gameover: :ilold: :feelsgoodman: :durrhurr: :jimcarreysplit:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14090706 -

Trooolololololo



Viva la revolucion

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14090714 -

So who wants to take over a ghost town?  Or mass move into some BLM land with a spring? It would be great if we could make places for people to come to learn to live a simpler way. Think of it like a home base.  A place for the rebuilding of tribes. A place to go to get away. I have a few places in mind in my area.


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:irishtoast:

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Re: COLLAPSE - the imminent catastrophe the mainstream media try to distract you from [Re: cacharstar]
    #14090716 -

Take a drive along Route 66. Hundreds of ghost towns. :smile:


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