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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: linkamathingy]
    #13813954 -

linkamathingy said:
money exists to ease trade. fiat money exists as well, and is run horribly by the agencies overseeing it. people should understand the importance of money. zeitgeist could be illuminati driven, to
disenfranchise people and split them.



Illuminati driven?
:lolsy:

Money exists to sap wealth from the majority and concentrate it to the minority.  Given the right information, this becomes utterly obvious.  It should be obvious anyway.  The highest paid 1% in the US owns half the country's wealth.  I mean... hello?
If you want to start comparing information, I am so up for that.  There's no debunking mathematical fact.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13813964 -

Quote:
There's no debunking mathematical fact.


Thats true.  But assuming that wealth scales linearly with dollars is far from a mathematical fact, its an assumption that is usually made to support one's pre-existing beliefs.

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13814000 -

I can update my pre-existing beliefs to accommodate the truth of the matter.  But you're going to have to go a little deeper than that to show me how I'm making an assumption.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13814105 -

deadendeavor said:
I can update my pre-existing beliefs to accommodate the truth of the matter.  But you're going to have to go a little deeper than that to show me how I'm making an assumption.


The notion that money was created to transfer money from minority (lower/middle class) to the upper class is an assumption.  It's based on subjective evidence.

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #13814111 -

One of the most important things you can ever learn in arguing a point is that correlation does not equal causation.

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: noticeofeviction]
    #13814143 -

noticeofeviction said:
How much?

I need $700 by the end of the month or I'm fucked. We'll see what happens I guess :uhoh:


I'm in over $250,000 in debt.


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Spectaculorum procedere debet





:mushroom2: :beer:

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #13814227 -

LoveYourLife said:
deadendeavor said:
I can update my pre-existing beliefs to accommodate the truth of the matter.  But you're going to have to go a little deeper than that to show me how I'm making an assumption.


The notion that money was created to transfer money from minority (lower/middle class) to the upper class is an assumption.  It's based on subjective evidence.


Regardless of why money was created, my point still stands.  Whatever reason there was in the initial concept of money, the fact is that today the best paid 1% own half the country's wealth.  The statutes of the fractional reserve banking system allow this to happen.  I'm not arguing why money was created, I'm simply saying these peoples' debt is Inevitable due to the policies by which money is governed.
Money is created out of debt, through interest.  Therefore money comes from the bank and More money is invariably owed back to the bank.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13814259 -

deadendeavor said:
LoveYourLife said:
deadendeavor said:
I can update my pre-existing beliefs to accommodate the truth of the matter.  But you're going to have to go a little deeper than that to show me how I'm making an assumption.


The notion that money was created to transfer money from minority (lower/middle class) to the upper class is an assumption.  It's based on subjective evidence.


Regardless of why money was created, my point still stands.  Whatever reason there was in the initial concept of money, the fact is that today the best paid 1% own half the country's wealth.  The statutes of the fractional reserve banking system allow this to happen.  I'm not arguing why money was created, I'm simply saying these peoples' debt is Inevitable due to the policies by which money is governed.
Money is created out of debt, through interest.  Therefore money comes from the bank and More money is invariably owed back to the bank.


I believe the number is closer to 10% of the top tier owning half of the country's wealth, but yes I agree with your other points.

In relation to that, Ron Paul is supposed to announce his candidacy for president in 2012 sometime this spring from what I've heard.

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: LoveYourLife]
    #13814285 -

this should come as no surprise
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2908


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13814303 -

that link is a bit dated, but in 2007 the richest 1% owned over 60% of the wealth  the graph also shows a clear movement toward greater inequality, so i don't doubt that it's worse today.
i just find that people still swallow this notion of 'free market' is appalling.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13814899 -

Sounds like you are just jealous that others make more than you.  What basic needs are you not able to afford?

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13815202 -

Quote:
What basic needs are you not able to afford?


someones not able to do molly recreationally.

but seriously... I went into about 40k in student loans, and another 8k on expenses throughout the college years. The blood suckers wanted $850 a month for the student loans. I just graduated and can't aafford shit past my small family's expenses.


Edited by joshisstoned (01/19/11 04:29 PM)

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13815219 -



do you see that?!?! 1960-1969, the bottom 90% of the wealthiest housholds held 65% of the total wealth, now they hold 10%%


anyone see anything wrong with that??


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13815237 -

also remember that they had the biggest tax on the wealthy at that time. It was like 97% tax on the wealthiest 1% or something. They(government) took the wealth back

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: joshisstoned]
    #13815260 -

no way, 97% tax?

you gotta throw out a link with a statement likethat


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13815266 -

Joshismakingshituplikeallrepublicans

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13815270 -

I think that is a deceptive statistic.  Everybody could (and is) get richer exponentially.  That would lead to exactly what you are observing.  The amount of wealth is not fixed, people can get rich without it necessarily coming from the poor.

Also, the notion that you are poor is ridiculous.  If you want an honest discussion of wealth inequality look at yourself vs africa or asia.  The difference between you and a millionaire is nothing compared to how they live.  To them - you are both rich.  To them you are part of the group that is hording all the 'wealth'.

Finally I will just say that it is too convenient to equate money with wealth and assume that it scales linearly.  To an impoverished farmer an extra dollar a day would substantially increase his wealth, but to you or I it would be imperceivable.  Wealth can also be modeled on orders of magnitude like many things are.  And it can be modeled by access to food, energy, housing, luxuries rather than the dollars we use to trade things with.

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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13815856 -

DieCommie said:
I think that is a deceptive statistic.  Everybody could (and is) get richer exponentially.  That would lead to exactly what you are observing.  The amount of wealth is not fixed, people can get rich without it necessarily coming from the poor.

Also, the notion that you are poor is ridiculous.  If you want an honest discussion of wealth inequality look at yourself vs africa or asia.  The difference between you and a millionaire is nothing compared to how they live.  To them - you are both rich.  To them you are part of the group that is hording all the 'wealth'.

Finally I will just say that it is too convenient to equate money with wealth and assume that it scales linearly.  To an impoverished farmer an extra dollar a day would substantially increase his wealth, but to you or I it would be imperceivable.  Wealth can also be modeled on orders of magnitude like many things are.  And it can be modeled by access to food, energy, housing, luxuries rather than the dollars we use to trade things with.


First I want to point out that I have not said that I am poor.  That is an assumption on your part.  How much money I have is totally irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

You're right, wealth is not fixed, but what the statistic is showing is that rich people are making more money over time and the income gap is growing, in spite of your statement that anyone 'could' theoretically get richer.

To be honest, I still don't get your point.  How is this deceptive?  It shows the income gap in a number of time frames.  I see what you're saying about truly poor people and all of that, but this graph shows the income of the richest 1% vs. the poorest NINETY percent.  So the demographic is the vast majority of people.  It's likely that both of us, and everyone who has posted in this thread, falls into this demographic. 

I don't see how I could have made my point any clearer.  Are you saying that if I got rich, the outcome would be exactly the same?  If that's what you're implying, I agree.  This is the nature of the monetary system.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13816016 -

DieCommie said:
Everybody could (and is) get richer exponentially


To be more accurate, everyone Has to make more and more money to keep up with inflation.  This is a problem, because we are a planet of finite resources.  Nature won't support any system requiring infinite growth.

Not only does everyone have to perpetually make more money, people have to constantly consume in order to keep the economy going.  This leads directly to what is known as 'planned obsolescence.'  What this means is that products can only have an operational lifespan long enough to keep this perpetual consumption cycle going.  In other words, nothing can be made to last in this system.  If Chevrolet made a car that could last 100 years without service, it would either A)be so expensive, no one could afford it, or B)cause serious damage to the economy.


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Re: Who's in debt? [Re: Blend]
    #13816854 -

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/fed_individual_rate_history-20101220.pdf


please note the tax in 1962 for people making $100,000+... 91%

and for the record... I'm a democrat that LOVES guns

Edited by joshisstoned (01/19/11 08:28 PM)

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