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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13380822 -

You think that the image of what the mainstream media portrays these people is fact???

Again, all that nonsense about racism is a superficial attempt at avoiding the important issues like economics!


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13387320 -

The teaparty is not consistent on any of it's "economic issues" at all, the opinions you espouse here are way away from the positions espoused by so called teaparty pundits and political candidates.

These concerns about the affiliation of the organization with racist/fascist organizations are significant and should be examined. In the DN! interview the NAACP says clearly that they want the tea party to deal with it's links to racism and racists. Given that many here think the tea party is likely going to fold, the teaparty may end up being a massive recruiting tool for overtly racist and fascist organizations. It is not unreasonable to say that they need to do something about this and that until they do they are undeniably an organization that has fascists in it's ranks. Also the fact that the organization is being used to recruit people to racist and fascist groups and advance their agendas is a serious problem for the teaparty that exposes that their demographic (if not their ideology as well) seems to have fascist leanings.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13388795 -

ScavengerType said:
The teaparty is not consistent on any of it's "economic issues" at all, the opinions you espouse here are way away from the positions espoused by so called teaparty pundits and political candidates.


What is the teaparty you mention in your post?  What positions are inconsistent and how do you know they are those of the 'teaparty'?

Anyways, Mr.Al's positions are a far ways from anyone's positions, the 'tea party' being no exception, and I certainly agree with you as to this point.


Quote:
These concerns about the affiliation of the organization with racist/fascist organizations are significant and should be examined. In the DN! interview the NAACP says clearly that they want the tea party to deal with it's links to racism and racists.


Lots of people say lots of things, so what?  Unless you are advancing this as a reasonable or compelling view, in which case I'd question why you feel this and what verifiable racist/facist links exist, there seems to be no reason to mention it here except as a red herring neither proven nor particularly clear in meaning except as a nebulous "badness" that may have *something* to do with *some group* you associate with the 'tea party'.

Quote:
Given that many here think the tea party is likely going to fold, the teaparty may end up being a massive recruiting tool for overtly racist and fascist organizations. It is not unreasonable to say that they need to do something about this


Who is they? Why do 'they' need to do 'something' about 'this', and what exactly does this mean?  I have no idea what this portion of your post should be taken to mean, except as an example of begging the question and shifting the discussion from the difficult question of the veracity of the claims to the consequential matters that need not be considered a priori.

What basis do you have for the racist/fascist potential claim, and what does it matter anyways?  I'm unsure of how this is relevant even if true- it certainly doesn't seem relevant to the question of the merits of the 'tea party's' positions as commonly understood nor those views advanced by self-styled supporters of the movement.  While the answer to this question necessarily depends on what you are claiming the 'tea party' you speak of is (which I genuinely do not know nor have plausible guesses), it seems inherently troublesome to envision appropriate responses to this situation even if extant.  I don't know what reasonable and appropriate measures should be taken and who should take them if this situation exists... what do you suggest need be done and by whom?


Quote:
It is not unreasonable to say that they need to do something about this and that until they do they are undeniably an organization that has fascists in it's ranks.


As pretty much any organization, assuming arguendo that such a concept applies to whatever we're calling the 'tea party' in this thread, arguendo, could likewise be rightly said to have fascists in its ranks, I presume you mean to claimthe 'tea party' has fascists of a nature or quantity peculiar to similar organizations- yes?  What do you base this on and what do you claim this establishes? 

I don't see it as particularly relevant and note that it fits with the parade of poisoning-the-well schlock that seems to be marched through any discussion of the 'tea party' and yet I've yet to find anyone explain the relevance of this to the positions associated with the 'tea party'- for or against.  I've asked many times, including previously in this thread, and never gotten an answer, and it really seems like this is just cheap theater employed as a way to denounce the movement (vicar for the issues which are ignored at all costs) without having to confront the political positions raised.  In the popular media and on the shroomery, both, I've seen this play out continuosly, and it really does seem peculiar... I can't think of a similar example of such a thing playing out in the popular media in this way...


Quote:
Also the fact that the organization is being used to recruit people to racist and fascist groups and advance their agendas is a serious problem for the teaparty that exposes that their demographic (if not their ideology as well) seems to have fascist leanings.


This is more begging the question.  Please establish your antecedent as true and explain the relevance of the consequent.

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13390521 -

Horseshit.

Many people who identify with the tea party follow free market economics,more specifically Austrian economics.

Ron Paul would be an example of a tea party politician.

Again, many people who like more government to bribe them with more free shit and look the other way while we bomb other countries into the stone age may shout incendiary nonsense about imaginary racism...


Make an attempt to say where these folks are wrong when they say that big government is bankrupting this country. 

Remember:

It's the economy, stupid.

As far as fascism is concerned, there is less of a problem with that when government has less funding and fewer departments...


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: johnm214]
    #13390532 -

As far as you are concerned, my opinions on economic are not diametrically opposed to tea party views.  Some of them still think the U.S. should police the world.  Regardless of whether it makes for sound foreign policy (I don't think it does) I don't think the U.S. can afford it.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13390550 -

Quote:
Make an attempt to say where these folks are wrong when they say that big government is bankrupting this country.


Make an attempt to say how it's possible to finance two wars with tax cuts.

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: jimbotron]
    #13390569 -

Mr.Al said:
As far as you are concerned, my opinions on economic are not diametrically opposed to tea party views.  Some of them still think the U.S. should police the world.  Regardless of whether it makes for sound foreign policy (I don't think it does) I don't think the U.S. can afford it.



Notice that the Democrats are also all about warfare.

Which 2008 Presidential candidate was all for marching right out of Iraq and Afghanistan immediately?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (10/26/10 04:13 PM)

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: jimbotron]
    #13390723 -

jimbotron said:
Quote:
Make an attempt to say where these folks are wrong when they say that big government is bankrupting this country.


Make an attempt to say how it's possible to finance two wars with tax cuts.


See my sig


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13390788 -

Do you think that the present U.S. foreign policy will be viable, economically speaking, when the interest rates on U.S. government debt instruments rise?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13390906 -

Yes


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13390943 -

Look what happened to Greece when their debt became obviously unsustainable...


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13391517 -

Which has not one thing to do with what we can afford, does it?  See my sig.  What part of the Greek disaster could possibly be attributable to their vast defense budget?


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13391919 -

Mr.Al said:
Do you think that the present U.S. foreign policy will be viable, economically speaking, when the interest rates on U.S. government debt instruments rise?


Nope, it sure won't. And that's good. If we weren't sticking our noses in everybody's business, we'd be better thought of in the world, and save money to boot.

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #13394299 -

Really?  You think they'd really really like us?  Isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and everybody will love us and we will live in peace and harmony for all our days?


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13395233 -

zappaisgod said:
Really?  You think they'd really really like us?  Isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and everybody will love us and we will live in peace and harmony for all our days?





The difficulty the U.S. has presently is that the foreign policy doctrine of initiating preemptive strikes has the potential to destabilize international relations.

If the U.S. initiates preemptive strikes or invasions against foreign countries, how does the U.S. claim to have the moral authority to tell other nations not to do the same?

You need to read up on some history zap.  Many empires have fallen when they become overextended militarily.

Empires are just too damn expensive.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13395265 -

We don't have an empire and we aren't overextended militarily.  We are, however, massively overextended regarding entitlement programs and government payrolls.

http://www.famousquotessite.com/famous-quotes-6934-alexander-fraser-tyler-cycle-of-democracy-1770.html
Quote:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over lousy fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world’s great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to Complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage.



Public sector unions and endless entitlements, Al.  Don't you think there is something wrong when government employees can bribe, en masse, their overseers, Congress etc., to screw the people who write the checks, all other taxpayers?


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13395297 -

How many bases do we have in how many different countries?

If this is not an empire what is?

The warfare/welfare state is not separate. 

Again, if you were a student of history you would recall the social welfare the Romans had while they were involved in empire building.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13395318 -

Mr.Al said:
How many bases do we have in how many different countries?


Lots.  All, as far as I know, currently by invitation.
Quote:
If this is not an empire what is?


Read some history.  Start with something somewhat recent.  The British Empire, for instance.  It seems to have rather different features.
Quote:
The warfare/welfare state is not separate.


Yes it is.  Completely separate.
Quote:
 

Again, if you were a student of history you would recall the social welfare the Romans had while they were involved in empire building.


If you were a student of history you would know what an empire is.


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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13395367 -

The Roman Empire is most similar to present day U.S.

Maybe some people in other nations hate the U.S. because we are still in their backyard after bombing them and killing many of their families.

Do you think that there are no consequences to foreign policy misadventure?

Politicians who support welfare also support the warfare.  Where is the separation zap?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (10/27/10 03:43 PM)

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Re: this is your govt on tea... [Re: Mr.Al] * 1
    #13395401 -

Al, Ron Paul is not the only tea party candidate in this election and many who are affiliated with the tea party and it's supporters oppose decreasing defense spending. I had just seen one such tea party Candidate on Real Time with Bill Maher the other week and she outright said that she didn't want to cut defense spending. Many tea party candidates are having a hard time vocalizing any programs that they would like to cut.

Hell it seems that tea party candidates are more willing to be vocal about their non-belief in evolution or gay rights or immigrant rights or naturalized citizenship rights than what programs they wish to cut. In actuality it is quite possible that economic issues aren't even the party's strongest link (like it claims).

_______

johnm214 said:
Quote:
These concerns about the affiliation of the organization with racist/fascist organizations are significant and should be examined. In the DN! interview the NAACP says clearly that they want the tea party to deal with it's links to racism and racists.


Lots of people say lots of things, so what?  Unless you are advancing this as a reasonable or compelling view, in which case I'd question why you feel this and what verifiable racist/facist links exist, there seems to be no reason to mention it here except as a red herring neither proven nor particularly clear in meaning except as a nebulous "badness" that may have *something* to do with *some group* you associate with the 'tea party'.


It is interesting that you say this since I did post a video where the links that were found were discussed as well as the actual NAACP report website. People and organizations were named in the report and their links to the tea party were not shown to be trivial or simply that of just attending. Perhaps you should reread the discussions of my posts in this thread but these were not the trivial more easily dismissed links that anna opened the thread with this is a serious report.

I have participated in lots of anti-racist/fascist organizations and I don't think I need to justify myself as coming out against it in this context.

Quote:
What basis do you have for the racist/fascist potential claim, and what does it matter anyways?


If the teaparty folds and it has a lot of racist/fascist members they will be able to ask contacts from the teaparty if they would like to join movements related to the racist or fascist issues which the teaparty has skirted them towards.

Quote:
I'm unsure of how this is relevant even if true- it certainly doesn't seem relevant to the question of the merits of the 'tea party's' positions as commonly understood nor those views advanced by self-styled supporters of the movement.  While the answer to this question necessarily depends on what you are claiming the 'tea party' you speak of is (which I genuinely do not know nor have plausible guesses), it seems inherently troublesome to envision appropriate responses to this situation even if extant.  I don't know what reasonable and appropriate measures should be taken and who should take them if this situation exists... what do you suggest need be done and by whom?


Well if you had watched the video I'd propose the same solution that the NAACP representative suggested, that teaparty's throw theses people particularly out of leadership positions in their teaparty chapters. It's obvious that if these people have the authority to control how the group meets and things discussed/speakers at meetings, they can embed messages of white supremacy/fascism into the party's activities and draw more attention to the issues that are white supremacist/fascist and away from things like defense spending.

Quote:
Quote:
Also the fact that the organization is being used to recruit people to racist and fascist groups and advance their agendas is a serious problem for the teaparty that exposes that their demographic (if not their ideology as well) seems to have fascist leanings.


This is more begging the question.  Please establish your antecedent as true and explain the relevance of the consequent.


For the last time, I have submitted proof. Tea partys have fascists in their group and in their demographic, this should not be controversial at all if you are not charging the NAACP of publishing a false report. In which case we will have to agree to dissagree.

__________

Would fascists do this?

Apparently the victim wanted to present Rand with a satirical award and was instead attacked by overzealous fuckwads.
In a further sense of irony, the person who stomped on her head and gave her a concussion was wearing a "don't tread on me" button.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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