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Soy and Milk
    #11583536 -

I think we need more studies...

Thoughts?



Some random links on the topic:

Soy article by Ivan Blazquez

Soy study by Agency For Healthcare Research and Quality

Short Milk article by Clayton South

Long BB.com thread regarding Soy vs Milk


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."


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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: eligal]
    #11583599 -

Soy is definitely amazing.  I eat it every day.  People seem to forget the fact that cows are injected with shit tons of estrogen too. 

Quote:
That said, isoflavones are actually quite different from estrogen. Estrogen-like effects are rarely observed in clinical studies measuring the ingestion of soy foods or isoflavones.20-22

This is not surprising since receptor binding – a common in vitro measure of estrogenicity – is a poor predictor of in vivo activity.23

Compounds that bind to estrogen receptors often have different, and sometimes opposite, physiological effects depending upon how the isoflavone and receptor interact within different cells.24-26

Clinical studies do show that neither soy foods nor isoflavones affect serum levels of testosterone or estrogen.27-39 In fact, several studies have found no effects on testosterone despite ingestion of isoflavones at levels that were 20- to 30-times higher than the typical Japanese intake.40, 41 


The citations are all given on this page : http://soynutrition.com/SoyHealth/SoyMyths.html

Soy has been seriously misrepresented..


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Put America to sleep with warm milk and clichés.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: eligal]
    #11588043 -

I absolutely refuse to buy anything with soy in it and I avoid dairy as much as possible also.  The dairy simply because it's an allergen and tends to aggravate some sinus and skin issues.  Soy on the other hand is completely unhealthy for men.  It lowers testosterone, cuts sperm production by half, and is an estrogen agonist meaning too much of it for a long time and you could end up with "bitch tits."

Soy is being crammed down the world's throat because it is very very cheap.  Look at real, credible clinical studies and see who did the funding.  A lot of companies stand to lose a lot of money if people start rejecting all soy en mass.

Soy got sold off as a new age health food and the hippies swallowed it whole.  (No offense to hippies)


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: PowerTrip]
    #11589305 -

That's absolutely not true at all.  Did you read the post before yours?  Did you read the links by the OP?  There are many many sources that show clinical trials proved this inaccurate.  Your red meat is injected with a whole lot of estrogen too, just so you know. 

Quote:
Clinical studies do show that neither soy foods nor isoflavones affect serum levels of testosterone or estrogen.27-39 In fact, several studies have found no effects on testosterone despite ingestion of isoflavones at levels that were 20- to 30-times higher than the typical Japanese intake.40, 41

27. Mitchell JH, Cawood E, Kinniburgh D, Provan A, Collins AR, Irvine DS. Effect of a phytoestrogen food supplement on reproductive health in normal males. Clin Sci (Lond) 2001;100:613-618.
28. Higashi K, Abata S, Iwamoto N, Ogura M, Yamashita T, Ishikawa O, Ohslzu F, Nakamura H. Effects of soy protein on levels of remnant-like particles cholesterol and vitamin E in healthy men. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo) 2001;47:283-288.
29. Habito RC, Montalto J, Leslie E, Ball MJ. Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the diet on sex hormone concentrations in healthy adult males. Br J Nutr 2000;84:557-563.
30. Mackey R, Ekangaki A, Eden JA. The effects of soy protein in women and men with elevated plasma lipids. Biofactors 2000;12:251-257.
31. Jarred RA, Keikha M, Dowling C, McPherson SJ, Clare AM, Husband AJ, Pedersen JS, Frydenberg M, Risbridger GP. Induction of Apoptosis in Low to Moderate-Grade Human Prostate Carcinoma by Red Clover-derived Dietary Isoflavones. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2002;11:1689-1696.
32. Gardner-Thorpe D, O'Hagen C, Young I, Lewis SJ. Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men. Eur J Clin Nutr 2003;57:100-106.
33. Dalais FS, Meliala A, Wattanapenpaiboon N, Frydenberg M, Suter DA, Thomson WK, Wahlqvist ML. Effects of a diet rich in phytoestrogens on prostate-specific antigen and sex hormones in men diagnosed with prostate cancer. Urology 2004;64:510-515.
34. Lephart ED, Porter JP, Lund TD, Bu L, Setchell KD, Ramoz G, Crowley WR. Dietary isoflavones alter regulatory behaviors, metabolic hormones and neuroendocrine function in Long-Evans male rats. Nutr Metab (Lond) 2004;1:16.
35. Zittermann A, Geppert J, Baier S, Zehn N, Gouni-Berthold I, Berthold HK, Reinsberg J, Stehle P. Short-term effects of high soy supplementation on sex hormones, bone markers, and lipid parameters in young female adults. Eur J Nutr 2004;43:100-108.
36. Nicholls J, Lasley BL, Nakajima ST, Setchell KD, Schneeman BO. Effects of soy consumption on gonadotropin secretion and acute pituitary responses to gonadotropin-releasing hormone in women. J Nutr 2002;132:708-714.
37. Duncan AM, Merz BE, Xu X, Nagel TC, Phipps WR, Kurzer MS. Soy isoflavones exert modest hormonal effects in premenopausal women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999;84:192-197.
38. Brown BD, Thomas W, Hutchins A, Martini MC, Slavin JL. Types of dietary fat and soy minimally affect hormones and biomarkers associated with breast cancer risk in premenopausal women. Nutr Cancer 2002;43:22-30.
39. deVere White RW, Hackman RM, Soares SE, Beckett LA, Li Y, Sun B. Effects of a genistein-rich extract on PSA levels in men with a history of prostate cancer. Urology 2004;63:259-263.
40. Fischer L, Mahoney C, Jeffcoat AR, Koch MA, Thomas BE, Valentine JL, Stinchcombe T, Boan J, Crowell JA, Zeisel SH. Clinical characteristics and pharmacokinetics of purified soy isoflavones: multiple-dose administration to men with prostate neoplasia. Nutr Cancer 2004;48:160-170.
41. Chang HC, Doerge DR. Dietary genistein inactivates rat thyroid peroxidase in vivo without an apparent hypothyroid effect. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 2000;168:244-252.



If you'd like, I'll quote another 30 sources, and after that, if you'd like, I can quote another 30.

Where's your proof that soy at average intake causes severe estrogenic side effects?

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11593072 -

BothHands said:
That's absolutely not true at all.  Did you read the post before yours?  Did you read the links by the OP?  There are many many sources that show clinical trials proved this inaccurate.  Your red meat is injected with a whole lot of estrogen too, just so you know.


First of all, that website you keep promoting is owned by the largest soymilk company in this country.

http://whois.domaintools.com/soynutrition.com

You can see the owner is Dean Foods.  While they do produce dairy milk, they also own the company which produces Silk soymilk.

http://www.deanfoods.com/

That's nice that you are such a crusader for soy.  Your copy-paste job from a soy manufactures website is very convincing, really.  You need to understand that clinical trials require money.  This is why countless harmful products make it to the market.  Deadly drugs are overlooked.  If a major corporation puts up the money for a study, and they don't get the results they want, that researcher doesn't get anymore money.  Results are paid for, not proven.  Data can be easily skewed and it has come out in the past that researchers have put out fraudulent data because they received a kickback from a drug manufacturer or corporation.

All of that being said, it is well established that soy has estrogenic properties.  I don't see the point in debating this with you because you're obviously adamant that it is a health food and it's going to get us off of meat.  So keep choking down your soy protein, which is actually a waste product from oil production, by the way.  They used to add it to cattle and pet food but as is usually the case people are dumb enough to buy anything so now it gets put into most of our food.  Why do you think that is, by the way?  All of these manufacturers are so conscientious and concerned with our health that they are suddenly putting this amazing health imbibing miracle ingredient into everything we eat?  No.  It's cheap and plentiful and that means they make more money as long as you are willing to eat it.

There is absolutely no shortage of data out there indicating the harmful effects of soy, especially in men.  As I said, there's also plenty of data indicating that soy is healthy because money runs clinical trials.  You can eat what you want but I refuse to touch soy and I advise everyone else to do the same.  Plant proteins have very low bioavailability making it a very poor replacement for milk, eggs, whey, or meat.  The phthalates in soy result in reduced absorption of essential minerals.  The estrogenic effects are well known.

What's your agenda here, anyway?  Vegan?  You keep talking about meat having harmful hormones.  You can buy organic meat, by the way.  The hormones in soy on the other hand are a natural part of the plant itself.

I don't eat much meat anyway.  Most of my protein comes from whey powder mixed with coconut milk.  It gives the protein and some healthy fats with minimal hormones.


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: PowerTrip]
    #11593637 -

I appreciate that you're putting in some effort to defend your point.  Personally, I'm a vegetarian, and I like soy foods.  That's not necessarily my agenda; I don't like misinformation.  Perhaps I have been misinformed, but I can't find reputable peer reviewed information saying that average soy intake decreases testosterone by a significant amount.  I have found information on babies having estrogenic effects when their diet consists of 100% soy, but your diet would likely be far less than that.  Other estrogenic effects are mentioned by studies dosing patients with obscene amounts of phytoesterols, but again, if you're eating a normal diet, you shouldn't have a problem.  I suppose you may have a valid argument for the OP though.  If he's into body building and eating 800g of soy protein a day, he might have estrogenic effects.  I, on the other hand, only need 49 grams of protein a day.  An average man my age might need 100g, and they'll likely get part of that from other sources as well. 

Obviously soy does contain phytoesterols.  Though these chemicals have mildly estrogenic effects on the body, they also "inhibit enzymes that are responsible for converting androgens into oestradiol."  This is according to studies in the "American Journal of Clinical Nutrition."  It's a peer reviewed scholarly journal. 

Have you read the OP's links?  http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/soysum.htm,is the unbiased website of "The US Department of Health and Human Services" that doesn't even mention estrogenic effects under "Adverse Effects."  Though they mention that up to 55% of the studies may have been biased, no estrogenic effects were mentioned in the 45% of other studies. At least, no effects that were significant enough to mention.

Personally, I'll keep eating soy products because they contain full proteins, protect against breast cancer (if you'd like, I could cite another peer reviewed scholarly journal), and they taste damn good.

In the end, what you eat is up to you.  Many other vegetables have phytoestrogens in them too though.  Might want to look those up too I guess.  I couldn't live without fennel haha.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11593923 -

Type soy into google search engine to see what comes up.

Its surprising. Alot of politics for the soybean.

You can probably get a less biased (although clearly more polarized) representation of cannabis, considering that the jury is still out.

Look into phytoestrogens, that is the main complaint it seems; the rest of it seems to be the subsequent sensationalism of an established political concern. (That is to say, its easy to add weight to either side of what is already polarized.)

Phytoestrogens though - take a look at the levels in foods.
http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/phytoestrogen.php

Flax seems to have 4 times as much, but socio-economically, it does not hold so much weight as soy. Although I did not look very long, I could not find a single article attacking flax in this same manner.

Makes me assume that phytoestrogen is just a nice issue to blow out of proportion when so many "effeminate" vegetarians rely on it as a source of protein. Makes sense right?

Holistically, I continue to consume soy, for what seems to be its health benefits and convenience. Yet phytoestrogen remains a concern to me though, because how can I know for sure? I'm not "for soy" so much, and my inclination has little to do with how much I consume. I consume alot of soy, but its kind of hard to really be that enthusiastic for beans. If it really was a health concern, it wouldn't be like losing faith in a diety or something. On the other hand it seems to garner a weirdly disproportionate amount of concern/hate for whatever reason, and I imagine alot of sentiment from the anti-soy people.

Whether my current opinion is right or wrong, I am sort of pissed at the general situation; that I have to sift through all of this, when it is likely a false alarm raised for the sake of capitalist substance fetish or the insecurity of someone else's Manhood... Because yea, those are probably what it is... Its absurd that we have to consider scientific studies first as economic/political phenomena, and only subsequently as possibly bearing information relevant to individual health.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11593961 -

For the sake of proper science and debate, I'll give some studies.  I'll link the full article but highlight the important points.

The group of men in this study who showed the most significant drop in semen production consumed on average one half serving of soy daily.
Soy food and isoflavone intake in relation to semen quality parameters among men from an infertility clinic
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/den243v1

METHODS: The intake of 15 soy-based foods in the previous 3 months was assessed for 99 male partners of subfertile couples who presented for semen analyses to the Massachusetts General Hospital Fertility Center.

RESULTS: There was an inverse association between soy food intake and sperm concentration that remained significant after accounting for age, abstinence time, body mass index, caffeine and alcohol intake and smoking.

CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that higher intake of soy foods and soy isoflavones is associated with lower sperm concentration.

This next study demonstrated that after one month, consuming 56g/day of soy protein powder reduced testosterone production by 19%.
Clinical and biological activity of soy protein powder supplementation in healthy male volunteers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17416779

PURPOSE: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected..

RESULTS: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(+/-22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder.

CONCLUSION: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-beta agonist

This study above using protein powder is significant because the amount used is easily what a consumer would take in.  Only two scoops per day.  I use 2-3 scoops of whey per day and most people who exercise regularly supplement at least 50g of protein from powders.


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: daytripper23]
    #11594076 -

Yeah I supplement with soy powder for my exercise routine. :strokebeard:

Are we talking about any permanent damage?

Of course I don't want to grow any boobs, or to go sterile, but I'm not sure how much I mind having less testosterone over the course of a few weeks.

anyhoo thanks for your concern.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: daytripper23]
    #11594949 -

Hmm, well, there ya go I guess.  It's still possible that your studies are biased.  I'm willing to admit that my sources from "SoyNutrition" were likely quite biased, but I did find some sources that are just as viable as yours.  It's possible that so many studies have had bias that we'll never know exactly how significant the effects of soy *really* are. 

As day tripper said: "Its absurd that we have to consider scientific studies first as economic/political phenomena, and only subsequently as possibly bearing information relevant to individual health."

I couldn't have said it better.

As a woman, I have nothing to worry about anyway, so I'll continue to eat soy.  Men on the other hand, well, you'll probably never know for sure.  Maybe it is safer to stay away..

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11595506 -

I'd like to see sources from both ends of the spectrum.

Powertrip's source seems rather convincing, but on the other hand, I want to reiterate my skepticism. The methods,  philosophy, and economy of "substance" in our world has a track record for sensationalism.

For instance, imagine the concern of many that cannabis causes brain damage. Only later, after legislation is established, do we realize that short term memory loss is not so devastating. That was just one of many studies...

How tight is the correlation between phytoestrogens, testosterone, and...boobage?

Of course this is a generalization but man boobs could be like brain damage, drops of testosterone short term memory loss, and phytoestrogens, "toxic" substance like THC or Cannaboids.

Remembering that our science is fundamentally useful, its "wielding" can become a matter of what we choose to focus upon - At first the basic assertion of context, and following that, polar discourse towards opposing absolutes of evidence.

There is a fundamental concern with what we consume, which is a good kind of skepticism - but through the demand of evidence, it is easy to portray almost anything as either black or white. I am rather cynical of the vascilations between absolute security and terror, and am inclined to think that if there is enough incentive, this could apply to anything.

That is, its enough to say, "the jury is still out" on anything from apples to cannabis. But what that actually means, is no nothing has been proven as dangerous, "but we are still looking mind you", and that is often enough said in the social sphere.

The method reigns as something in itself...This goes all the way back to Descartes, who laid the groundwork for science and substance theory. For the philosophically minded - when we are looking for substantial evidence in what already lies ready-to-hand as substance, precisely what is it that we are doing? What I am acknowledging, is that on a certain level, we are just asserting context. If the incentive is there, we could fear just about anything.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: daytripper23]
    #11596093 -

Of course I am again generalizing, but if the evidence that bars cannabis from legitimate consumption turns out only to be the dogmas of a spiritually bereft society, could the ostensible "feminization" of soy have anything to do with a society uncomfortable with sexuality?

What is strange about delegitimizing a substance, is finding the necessary impetus for this.

A substance like soy lays ready to hand for use, but it doesn't mean anyone has to use it, or be at all effected by it. Granted, my foil of cannabis is a different consideration, due to the ostensible social threat arising directly from "refer madness"; but in comparison, this should lead us to a more terse interrogation of the "anti soy" argument itself. How does this person or institution make soy his business?

The only possible impetus, is care for ones fellow man. (because a person is not forced to consume soy himself)

Therefore the context may only be asserted on the pretense of care. Well what can I say, I'm a bit cynical.

On the other hand, social and economic complexities do explain how it could become ones very own business, as the subtle leap to caring for the institutionalization of others.

So why would someone attack soy?

I am just presenting my cynicism to establish the very real burden of asserting context.

Edited by daytripper23 (12/06/09 10:32 PM)

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: daytripper23]
    #11598917 -

soy can be pretty bad sometimes though...

as an additive, Im guessing it is not even cooked before processing.. thats like drinking ground up beans that are meant to be cooked..

]i opt for nut milks and hemp milks.. as i still like my nuts (not soy estrogens)

but SERIOSULY soy causes boobies man.. not even shitting you.. :smile:

you can always try the hemp protein pwders, they dont taste too great by themselves but you can always add in some flavor (chocolate or something) they DO make chocolate hempshakes and opther flavors, but again they have added chemical flavorings.. its not always all natural, and even "all natural" can mean chemicals DERIVED from natural sources.. :smile:

Edited by benitoamanito (12/06/09 10:13 PM)

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: benitoamanito]
    #11599003 -

hmmm, have to be careful of the boobage of all things. Have to be a cynic too though.

I'll prolly look into a different powder once this stuff is gone, it doesn't taste that great anyhow.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: benitoamanito]
    #11599034 -

Where is your source on the male breast situation?  Even PowerTrip's studies only showed a 19% decrease in testosterone.  That's certainly not enough to cause breast formation.

In fact, I have a transgender friend who has been on estrogen/antiandrogen therapy for more than a year now.  She has not yet grown breasts.  She has slight enlargement, but it isn't even noticeable.  I've seen gym-goers with pectoral muscles five times the size of her growth. She's taking *far* more estrogen than you would ever get through a soy diet.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11599294 -

im saying, uhh,, soy makes your already man tits look more titty like.. not that you actually form freakin BREAsts lol.. wtf..

daytripper you might try some hemp protein powders theirs a lot of protein.. you can always make your own, just grind upa bunch of seeds as much as you can by hand, then strain the shells and what not (flax seed, sunflower, hemp seed, almonds nuts etc.. anythign with FATS)

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: benitoamanito]
    #11599308 -

Well, until you cite a reputable source, your information means absolutely nothing.  a 19% decrease in testosterone (worst case scenario) would not cause any change in breasts.

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: benitoamanito]
    #11599838 -

Phytoestrogen food sources - Phytoestrogen content (µg/100g)
Flax seed                       -              379380
Soy beans                       -              103920

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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: daytripper23]
    #11599896 -

I drink soymilk everyday and I haven't noticed any breasts popping up.  :lol:

I'll let you guys know. :boobs:


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Re: Soy and Milk [Re: BothHands]
    #11600455 -

BothHands said:
Well, until you cite a reputable source, your information means absolutely nothing.  a 19% decrease in testosterone (worst case scenario) would not cause any change in breasts.


That isn't the entire picture.  The soy is an estrogen agonist and acts in different parts of the body.  The drop in testosterone is due solely to the soy acting as an estrogen agonist at the leydig cells in the testicles.  The small amount of testosterone that is converted to estrogen naturally normally acts as a feedback at the testes to keep testosterone production at a normal level.  The soy gives the testes a false signal and the body thinks it is seeing high testosterone. 

As to the other effects of soy, it also down regulates androgen receptors.  This is why it is shown to help prevent prostate cancer and enlargement.  It makes the effects of testosterone and DHT weaker.  I don't know to what extent it has been studied, but it is definitely plausible that soy would down regulate androgen receptors elsewhere in the body.  For a man who wants to retain masculine characteristics, this is a bad thing.

I don't really tell women to stay away from it, but I don't see why any man would touch the stuff with so many other options out there.  You can buy whey protein which is from rBST free cows.  Even rice or hemp protein which has already been mentioned would be a better choice if you are a full vegan.


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life

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