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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity
    #11142431 -

Discuss this video. Do you think this is perhaps the best refutation of Christianity yet espoused?


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11142505 -

RationalEgo said:
Discuss this video. Do you think this is perhaps the best refutation of Christianity yet espoused?




I really hate people who over think shit. Obviously in a world where everything is viewed from different standpoints......we can talk shit on the bible till we are blue in the face.

To take the bible THIS seriously, is gonna ruin what it offers, and to try and disprove the bible this passionately is pretty sad itself. Is that honestly what these so called "Noble atheists" think is a valuable use of time? Trying to talk shit on others believes? Trying to Disprove metaphysical philosophies and theories?


Those fuckers are just as bad as the people set out to create them. If that moron set half as much effort trying to think creatively to positively reconstruct idea's......Think of what he might come up with! But instead he chooses to call others morons, and place himself on a throne with his elect group of thinkers.


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Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" :morningtoke:

Edited by Almond Flour (09/28/09 09:45 AM)

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Almond Flour]
    #11142547 -

Tea said:
RationalEgo said:
Discuss this video. Do you think this is perhaps the best refutation of Christianity yet espoused?




I really hate people who over think shit. Obviously in a world where everything is viewed from different standpoints......we can talk shit on the bible till we are blue in the face.

To take the bible THIS seriously, is gonna ruin what it offers, and to try and disprove the bible this passionately is pretty sad


I think you are missing the point, this video is not disproving the Bible, per se, but the actual morality of all Abrahamic religions. Did you even watch the video? Did you agree or disagree with something she said? Do you have anything to say on this subject at all?

Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions) have not only ruined America but has cost thousands of lives in history and has subjected many peoples minds to absurdities and atrocities of morality, turning them into mindless, death-loving zombies, so Sir I think the subject of religion and especially religious morality is still up for debate.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11142579 -

:lol:  It's so cute when atheists think they have the silver bullet against an entire religion.  The fact is that there are not just many religions, but different levels of religious understanding.  This is a nice little refutation of a very mythic, literalist, and in many ways Calvinist understanding of Christianity and original sin.  But the narrative of each religion is a template from which people can draw meaning at any level of their development, from pre-rational to rational to post-rational.  There are many Christianities, not just in terms of denominations, but also in levels of consciousness from which they interpret their religion.

As for the subject of original sin, most people don't need to be told they were born with sin in order to have sins to repent.  Christianity helps give hope, strength, and meaning to those who have lost their way.  This is why even mythic religion can be so positively transformational for drug addicts or those in prison.  I'd like to see someone read Atlas Shrugged to those people and see if it helps them one iota in turning around their lives.  At a certain level, guilt and shame can be good things.  They of course tend to outlast their usefulness, and perhaps Objectivism might help such a person later on their path when they come against the limitations of that mythic religion.  But the Objectivist would of course say that the person was mistaken to follow that mythic religion in the first place, instead of their alternative one-size-fits-all dogma.  But perhaps the person could, as he later evolved, transcend Objectivism as well, much as Nathaniel Branden has done.  Of course, Objectivists surely must chastise the man who Rand herself once considered the most rational man in the world, since he has violated the Gospel Truth of their "rational" religion.

And I know you want to flatter Rand as being such an original critic of Christianity, but there's really no insight her that wasn't first thought of by Nietzsche.


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Silversoul]
    #11142618 -

Pretty good insights silversoul...

Silversoul said:
And I know you want to flatter Rand as being such an original critic of Christianity, but there's really no insight her that wasn't first thought of by Nietzsche.


DING DING DING!

And even then if one studies Nietzsche you will see how he will speak of the pros and cons of religious thoughts, it just depends on what side of the matter people fixate on because its touchy to them or something.


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Almond Flour]
    #11142681 -

Tea said:
RationalEgo said:
Discuss this video. Do you think this is perhaps the best refutation of Christianity yet espoused?




I really hate people who over think shit. Obviously in a world where everything is viewed from different standpoints......we can talk shit on the bible till we are blue in the face.

To take the bible THIS seriously, is gonna ruin what it offers, and to try and disprove the bible this passionately is pretty sad itself. Is that honestly what these so called "Noble atheists" think is a valuable use of time? Trying to talk shit on others believes? Trying to Disprove metaphysical philosophies and theories?


Those fuckers are just as bad as the people set out to create them. If that moron set half as much effort trying to think creatively to positively reconstruct idea's......Think of what he might come up with! But instead he chooses to call others morons, and place himself on a throne with his elect group of thinkers.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh come on now dude, I fail to see why you need to react like that, what would you have them do? You realize these exchanges of ideas and debates are huge features of what one would call philosophizing and critically thinking.

But yes often many come off as douches that just need to shut up, but not absolutely.

Whats wrong with disproving metaphysical theories and stuff?

To react to the level of seriousness taken up by the naysayers is maybe reasonable but the whole enterprise isnt bullshit :wink:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11143197 -

I think 'original sin' just means that we are not perfect and are capable of making mistakes.
Whatever crazy powermongers made out of this for people to believe and make them blindly follow those who twist the truth, so it could not be understood by the ordinary folks anymore.
Those who twisted that truth are the real Destroyers of Christianity. Mainly covered with the christian mask.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Almond Flour]
    #11143216 -

Quote:
To take the bible THIS seriously, is gonna ruin what it offers


Rape, pillage and genocide?


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Silversoul]
    #11144221 -

Silversoul said:
:lol:  It's so cute when atheists think they have the silver bullet against an entire religion.  The fact is that there are not just many religions, but different levels of religious understanding.  This is a nice little refutation of a very mythic, literalist, and in many ways Calvinist understanding of Christianity and original sin.  But the narrative of each religion is a template from which people can draw meaning at any level of their development, from pre-rational to rational to post-rational.  There are many Christianities, not just in terms of denominations, but also in levels of consciousness from which they interpret their religion.



When someone is right they are right. Reality is not a consensus. What is the crux of the underlying morality and tennents of ALL these denominations? Objectivism provides a silver bullet by basing conclusions on the facts of reality and judging ideas by their own standards.

Quote:
As for the subject of original sin, most people don't need to be told they were born with sin in order to have sins to repent.  Christianity helps give hope, strength, and meaning to those who have lost their way. 




Christianity give HOPE in some imaginary afterlife and claims that we were all damned from the begining in this life. It feeds on victims and needs victims and suffering as proof of its doctrine, just like ALL religions do. some of them use different terminology, but they essentially speak of the same thing.

Quote:
This is why even mythic religion can be so positively transformational for drug addicts or those in prison.  I'd like to see someone read Atlas Shrugged to those people and see if it helps them one iota in turning around their lives.





Best place to find repentant 'sinners'? Prison! Well done for seeing that. 10+ gold stars for you. Atlas Shrugged is not a religion nor a self-help guide, it might inspire some, but most people in prison? Probably not.

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At a certain level, guilt and shame can be good things.




Guilt for being born? Shame for being human!? Why are you trying to defend this sick doctrine?

Quote:
They of course tend to outlast their usefulness, and perhaps Objectivism might help such a person later on their path when they come against the limitations of that mythic religion.  But the Objectivist would of course say that the person was mistaken to follow that mythic religion in the first place, instead of their alternative one-size-fits-all dogma.




Yes Objectivism would say that they were incorrect to follow that religion in the first place. Sad fact is, many people are born into mental enslavement via their parents. One-size-fits-all, you mean that facts of reality are the facts of reality? Aristotle agreed. Do you disagree that their is an Objective reality 'out there' that we can gain facts about  through our senses? Please elaborate as to why you disagree with a philosophy that deals in absolutes? If you mean by one-size-fits-all that Oism thinks it is suitable for everyone, then you are mistaken, it is not suitable for the hopelessly parasitic and the intentionally irrational.

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But perhaps the person could, as he later evolved, transcend Objectivism as well, much as Nathaniel Branden has done.  Of course, Objectivists surely must chastise the man who Rand herself once considered the most rational man in the world, since he has violated the Gospel Truth of their "rational" religion.




Again, Objectivism is not a 'religion' and you know full well how insulting you are attempting to be by calling it such. Bringing the whole Branden diabolical into this when it has nothing to do with the topic reeks of desperation and evasion of addressing the ideas.

Quote:
And I know you want to flatter Rand as being such an original critic of Christianity, but there's really no insight her that wasn't first thought of by Nietzsche.


No, if you had studied Rand and Neitzsche to any length you would know exactly where Rand and Nietzsche fundamentally differed on this issue.

Edited by RationalEgo (09/28/09 02:51 PM)

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11144288 -

Tell us where Rand is expounding anything much beyond what thinkers like Nietzsche already pretty much said. I really am curious.


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11144290 -

Quote:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.



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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: andrewss]
    #11144321 -

andrewss said:
Tell us where Rand is expounding anything much beyond what thinkers like Nietzsche already pretty much said. I really am curious.


She differs completely in Ethics and Epistemology with Nietzsche and also in most aspects of Metaphysics. In fact, the only thing I see them having in common, is their Atheism, and that is not really a positive affirmative position, rather it is just a negation of theism.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11144331 -

RationalEgo said:
When someone is right they are right. Reality is not a consensus. What is the crux of the underlying morality and tennents of ALL these denominations?


The crux of the underlying morality is that we are all our brother's keeper, as is the case for all religions, as well as all moral systems worth their salt.  Truth is not anything you want it to be, but it is plural, not singular.

Quote:
Objectivism provides a silver bullet by basing conclusions on the facts of reality and judging ideas by their own standards.


Objectivism is a silver bullet against having a mind of your own.  It inspires the most slavish, cultish devotion amongst those who would most vehemently protest that they are thinking for themselves.  It is almost post-modern in its irony, to such an extent that I would expect to see hipsters wearing Ayn Rand T-shirts.

Quote:
Christianity give HOPE in some imaginary afterlife and claims that we were all damned from the begining in this life. It feeds on victims and needs victims and suffering as proof of its doctrine, just like ALL religions do. some of them use different terminology, but they essentially speak of the same thing.


The hope that these redeemed people actually has less to do with the afterlife than you might think.  It is the hope that their sins do not define them, and that they can be renewed once again.  It is something that shallow "rationalists" like Rand could never grok.

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Guilt for being born? Shame for being human!? Why are you trying to defend this sick doctrine?


Please do not put words in my mouth.  It is beneath a "rational" person such as yourself.

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Yes Objectivism would say that they were incorrect to follow that religion in the first place. Sad fact is, many people are born into mental enslavement via their parents.


And some people choose mental enslavement later on after reading Atlas Shrugged.

Quote:
Again, Objectivism is not a 'religion' and you know full well how insulting you are attempting to be by calling it such. Bringing the whole Branden diabolical into this when it has nothing to do with the topic reeks of desperation and evasion of addressing the ideas.


Since you have no qualms about insulting religion, please explain to me why I should be any more delicate in my treatment of Objectivism.  I bring up Branden only because he is an example of someone who initially benefited from Objectivism but later transcended it after learning its limitations.  And I agree that "religion" is not an appropriate term.  It is far too generous.  "Cult" would be more appropriate.

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No, if you had studied Rand and Neitzsche to any length you would know exactly where Rand and Nietzsche fundamentally differed on this issue.


Yes, Nietzsche had evolved beyond the narrow, linear logic that Rand so dogmatically clung to.


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Silversoul]
    #11144361 -

Quote:
Since you have no qualms about insulting religion


Religion is self-mocking. No help is needed.


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11144393 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Since you have no qualms about insulting religion


Religion and Randism are self-mocking. No help is needed.


fixed


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Taco Chef]
    #11145197 -

Adam is the federal head of the race and his sin is imputed to all that follow him by natural birth.  Not only is the sin imputed, but the fallen nature of man as well.  Man thinks he can discern good and evil, but is spiritually dead and unable to understand the things of God without the power of the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth to him.

Christ is the federal head of all those who will become saved.  Because He is sinless, all in Christ are sinless by imputation.  Just as He is perfect all those born again are given a new nature. 

Regeneration and conversion are a one time event.  Once a person has been shown the gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit, and believes it, that person eternally saved.  Salvation is not a process that takes years of labor.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #11145539 -

Quote:
Salvation is not a process that takes years of labor.


No, just one guilt-filled moment on your knees, then you can go back to business as usual.


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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11145655 -

I think you're referring to repentance.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: Sventington]
    #11145818 -

fivepointer is awesome



he almost has to be a puppet / being sarcastic, otherwise I have no idea why he has been posting here when he thinks as "he does"


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Ayn Rand: The Destroyer Of Christianity [Re: andrewss]
    #11149022 -

fundamentalists, whether followers of jebus or ayn rand need to convert us to their world view; nothing disturbs them more than knowing that other people don't think exactly the same way they do.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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