Home | Community | Message Board


Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Objectivism?
    #3485033 - 12/12/04 03:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is anyone in here an objectivist or read anything by Ayn Rand? From what Ive seen, this place is pretty much overrun by immature liberal idealists, but just wondering. I happen to find it very interesting and id like to find out if anyone else does.


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3485055 - 12/12/04 04:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Anthem is my favorite book of all time...I'm still trying to learn exactly what objectivism is though, care to share your thoughts?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Hendostan]
    #3485056 - 12/12/04 04:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

not really, but www.google.com can


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3485114 - 12/12/04 04:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i just figured since you posted it you would have some thoughts on it


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Hendostan]
    #3485116 - 12/12/04 04:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i dont feel like typing out an essay tonight.


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3485120 - 12/12/04 04:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

fair enough...google it shall be. have you read Anthem?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Hendostan]
    #3485141 - 12/12/04 04:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i have not


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 months, 3 days
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3485250 - 12/12/04 06:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Objectivism is fundamentally flawed, because each individual has his own subjective worldview. Once you can get past that level of personal experience and see through anyone's eyes, you are a step closer towards true Objectivism.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3485606 - 12/12/04 11:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've read Ayn Rand extensively. Her philosophy (Objectivism) while incomplete is internally consistent as far as it goes. It is the only philosophy of which I am currently aware which can be validated against observable reality and requires no leaps of faith or speculation -- every facet of it is ultimately verified by working backwards to a single axiom -- existence exists.

When I say her philosophy is incomplete I mean that some of the biggest head-scratchers of philosophy aren't addressed by it. For example, Objectivism makes no attempt to explain why existence exists. Objectivism simply notes the self-evident -- that there is in fact a universe -- and proceeds from there. Similarly, Objectivism has nothing to say on the ultimate nature of consciousness; i.e. why some entities are conscious and by what mechanism does consciousness operate -- it simply notes that consciousness is an attribute of some entities currently operating within the observable universe and proceeds from there.

Very very little of Rand's philosophy originated with Ayn Rand. One notable exception is some of her work on epistemology, specifically her theory of concept-formation. Apart from that a well-read student of philosophy will find little new. Her key accomplishment was the organization of certain reality-based philosophical concepts into a logical and consistent hierarchical base.

To say that Objectivism is "fundamentally flawed because each individual has his own worldview" is to either not grasp the tenets of Objectivism or to subscribe to the "primacy of consciousness" (as opposed to the "primacy of existence") school of thought. If one believes that one's consciousness generates physical existence, then of course one will find the very concept of an objective reality upon which Objectivism is based to be flawed.


pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,171
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 2 minutes
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3485814 - 12/12/04 01:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

From what Ive seen, this place is pretty much overrun by immature liberal idealists




Your favorite porn site is one in which neo-Nazis humiliate and degrade black women on tape. How can you call anyone else immature?






--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Phred]
    #3485896 - 12/12/04 01:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

every facet of it is ultimately verified by working backwards to a single axiom -- existence exists.




I haven't read Ayn Rand, but I highly doubt you can logically conclude very much from "existence exists". By it's nature, logic adds nothing to its inputs. How can you conclude anything substantive from "existence exists"?

Further, I'm under the impression that Rand's philosophy is instruction on how people should be, not on how they are - she created an ideal heroic type, rather than studying actual human nature.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: phi1618]
    #3485942 - 12/12/04 01:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
I haven't read Ayn Rand,




Should've stopped there. Read it. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged both stand alone as entertaining books worth reading for enjoyment. They are not dry texts, although there is about a 70 page transcript of a radio address in one of them (I think Atlas Shrugged) that I skipped half of. I suspect her other work is more succinct, but these two books are quite enjoyable reads in addition to being thought provoking.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Learyfan]
    #3486075 - 12/12/04 02:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

From what Ive seen, this place is pretty much overrun by immature liberal idealists




Your favorite porn site is one in which neo-Nazis humiliate and degrade black women on tape. How can you call anyone else immature?



I think you got the wrong guy. That was KoOs who posted that.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3486139 - 12/12/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Personally, while I am libertarian, I do not consider myself an objectivist. I think Rand makes the mistake of deriving "should" from "is."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,171
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 2 minutes
Re: Objectivism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3486140 - 12/12/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

From what Ive seen, this place is pretty much overrun by immature liberal idealists




Your favorite porn site is one in which neo-Nazis humiliate and degrade black women on tape. How can you call anyone else immature?



I think you got the wrong guy. That was KoOs who posted that.




No, it was White Rabbit




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3486147 - 12/12/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

no i posted it first.

You see, I have a sense of humor. Something that many people in these parts seem to lack.


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Objectivism? [Re: phi1618]
    #3486242 - 12/12/04 02:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I haven't read Ayn Rand, but I highly doubt you can logically conclude very much from "existence exists".




I didn't say everything was spun out of a single axiom and nothing more. Re-read what I wrote -- one tests the validity of one's premises by working non-contradictorily backwards towards the original axiom. In fact there is a second axiom (or more accurately a corollary to it) at play here: existence (the universe if you prefer) exists and conscious beings (which are themselves entities acting within that universe and hence a part of it) are able to apprehend that universe.

Her main assertion is that unless one can validate one's premise against observable phenomena, that premise is of no philosophical value. For example, I can't prove that my eyes are not being moved by very tiny invisible monkeys pulling invisible cables -- even though the phrase "existence exists" doesn't preclude the existence of such monkeys.

The point here is that her philosophy has no worth if in fact existence does not exist. This is of course true of most other philosophies as well.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,171
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 2 minutes
Re: Objectivism? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #3486277 - 12/12/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteRabbitt said:
no i posted it first.

You see, I have a sense of humor. Something that many people in these parts seem to lack.




When you're older you'll understand why that site isn't funny. I don't feel like explaining it.

But anyway, back on topic..........




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Objectivism? [Re: Learyfan]
    #3486318 - 12/12/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, that site is funny. But anyway, back to the topic...


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,171
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 2 minutes
Re: Objectivism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3486346 - 12/12/04 03:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Actually, that site is funny.




God damn it. I need to leave The Shroomery alone today. I'm so disappointed in people. You guys are bumming me out. I expected a lot better from you SS7.

:nonono:




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Objectivism.. Here We Go Again!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Ped 8,373 130 03/22/06 12:37 AM
by SkorpivoMusterion
* Objectivism - The Libertarians? Albatross Evolving 697 5 11/03/04 10:48 PM
by Frog
* Reality: Our objective, benelovent friend SkorpivoMusterion 1,059 11 11/19/05 05:04 PM
by Ped
* objectivism on free will Deviate 656 3 12/16/05 07:33 AM
by Seuss
* An Aristotelian Foundation for Objectivity SkorpivoMusterion 1,199 8 04/22/06 07:40 AM
by fresh313
* Objectivism: What a load of..
( 1 2 3 all )
buttonion 4,082 52 05/19/03 11:19 AM
by Anonymous
* Question for moral objectivists
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 2,521 31 06/14/03 12:42 PM
by NewToTrippin
* can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Anonymous 13,170 157 12/21/04 08:31 AM
by deafpanda

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
4,606 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 21 queries.