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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #10272869 -

Nope - there is evidence against the teapot, your squirrel, the FSM, and an invisible pink unicorn.

Most ideas that people make up can be argued against and do fail when put up against evidence.

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #10272876 -

Snaggletooth said:
Rocker232 said:
I don't have anything and neither do you! That's the point. I just hate when people act as if one answer is right or wrong. The Big Bang happened, so what? Couldn't God have been the cause of it? As I said I don't believe in God, but I do like to play the Devil's advocate. Bringing up Christian belief in a discussion of God is not only ignorant, but its not needed. What of the Islamic God? What of the Hindu Gods? What of Diests? Agnostics? People have been thinking about God since the inception of man, IT IS INNATE. Do I think Christianity is a farce? Yes. Do I think organized religion is a waste? Yes and it has probably caused more problems than any other structure, ever, but that does not do ANYTHING to prove or disprove God.


I never said I was right, I am asking where is the beef. Sure god could have started the big bang be so could a giant squirrel. Again there is no prof, just because words form a coherent sentence does not make it valid. It is innate only before facts and reason...science. Well if you can disprove the tenets of organized religion, I think that goes a long way of proving god is a bunk myth. If they are wrong...lol Well they are the holders of the key.


And where is your proof to say he didn't? All you are doing is running circles. When two people in opposition have NO PROOF to disprove the other, both are wrong, both are right. Sorry, but that's how it works and if you go into any serious philosophical discussion that'll be the case. God is responsible for the big bang/God was not responsible for the big bang both have the same validity, as neither can be proven. I also wonder why science is the only proof against God, can people use experiences of God to prove his existence? I also do not understand why you use the beliefs of others to confirm your own, God is not a math problem.


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10272882 -

blewmeanie said:
He didn't have any set beliefs, they changed throughout his entire life.


I know....but he always believed in something, just not what organized religion had to say.

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

:thumbup:


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Atheist Chat

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10272895 -

Qubit said:
Nope - there is evidence against the teapot, your squirrel, the FSM, and an invisible pink unicorn.

Most ideas that people make up can be argued against and do fail when put up against evidence.



Very true! :thumbup:


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Atheist Chat

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10272933 -

Is there evidence against the teapot?  I think that's the whole point of the argument...there's no reason to believe that it's there, but there's no evidence that it isn't.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10272955 -

guruu said:
Is there evidence against the teapot?  I think that's the whole point of the argument...there's no reason to believe that it's there, but there's no evidence that it isn't.


How could something that is inside the universe have created it? Can you create the universe? If not why could some other species in the universe do so? Whether it can be disproved or not I would laugh at someone who brought it up in a serious conversation.


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: Rocker232]
    #10272967 -

That's not what I'm talking about at all.  I was just talking about the teapot argument that says "There could be a teapot floating around the world, but there probably isn't so nobody believes in it.  Likewise there could be a god, but there probably isn't so you shouldn't believe in it," or something to that effect.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10272978 -

guruu said:
That's not what I'm talking about at all.  I was just talking about the teapot argument that says "There could be a teapot floating around the world, but there probably isn't so nobody believes in it.  Likewise there could be a god, but there probably isn't so you shouldn't believe in it," or something to that effect.


"God" is a matter of faith though, what would probability matter?


--------------------
With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10272980 -

guruu said:
Is there evidence against the teapot?  I think that's the whole point of the argument...there's no reason to believe that it's there, but there's no evidence that it isn't.


I think there is plenty of reason to believe it isnt there.  A teapot, by definition, is a device made by humans to brew a human drink.  So for there to be a teapot orbiting mars, it would have to originate from earth.  We have only been lifting things into space for a few decades, and only put a few things in orbit around mars.  A teapot is not useful in for astronauts or as a satellite of mars, its very expensive to lift into orbit and there is no record of ever putting one in orbit.

Now this isnt 100% conclusive, but evidence rarely is.  Sure the Ruskies could have put a teapot in orbit that we dont know about, but in light of the evidence above that is highly, highly unlikely.

There is evidence against many things like the teapot, the flying spaghetti monster or an invisible pink unicorn (whose name alone is evidence against it, since an invisible unicorn wouldn't be pink).  Some versions of god have no evidence against them at all though, and that is why the teapot analogy fails.

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273005 -

That's the whole point though.  It could be there.  Just like there could be a supernatural creator.  Still, just like you don't believe in the teapot, for the same reasons many people don't believe in God.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10273013 -

guruu said:
I think most atheists and smart people that believe in god agree with each other and just use different language.

I'd describe myself as an atheist, and the god I don't believe in is a supernatural being that created and controls the universe (or pretty much just any supernatural being).  But a logos, some sort of central gnosis?  Yeah, I could definitely believe in that.  There has to be something fundamental about the universe, right?


Yeah, the fundamental part is creation and destruction. Destruction is part of creation. And when thinking about creation, you can't just think about the universe as it all happening at once. No one ever made a piece of artwork instantly. Whatever logos or central gnosis it is, it is bound by the same fundamental laws of creation(expression). Hence evolution possibly being a tool for creation to bring about life forms that think and perceive and onward to even more powerful beings.

The thing with humans is the concept of 'the watcher'. Without the human will and enjoyment of creation, creation means nothing. Time is relative to our minds. And that's the part that would make us special. If God looked into a mirror, He would see us, not some Zeus-like figure in the sky radiating beams of love and light. It's way more powerful than that yet simple and fundamental in it's nature at the same time. As soon as humans came into this realm of reality, which they weren't yet a part of, nature had a whole new playing field. Creatures that could think, express, and communicate. Which led to the discoveries of all the 'secrets' of nature, like science, math, physics, and the arts(creation). We are gifted with the very sorting power of creation and destruction that is the fundamental foundation for the entire universe. Even animals do this but only humans have a will. Which is why we need even more laws to keep our own will in tune with nature's.


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Edited by DR. PRIME (05/02/09 01:58 PM)

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10273014 -

Your glossing over the point, the point is I dont believe in the teapot because of evidence.  Evidence does exist against the teapot case.  No evidence exists against the god case.  These situations are not comparable.

Russell's original teapot argument relied on the idea that there is no evidence against it being there.  I disagree wholeheartedly, there is mounds of evidence against it being there.

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273031 -

There's logical evidence against God though.  Like, the whole "could God make a burrito so hot he can't eat it" sort of thing.  There's lots of logical paradoxes more complicated than that one too.  Maybe your definition of God is sophisticated enough to avoid these, though, and in that case the teapot argument doesn't even apply.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273035 -

First, human beings are stubborn. Every single person with an opinion is  stubborn. It's human nature. Obviously, you "know" you're right, and those athiests are just too stubborn to see. You clearly haven't changed your opinion, how are you any less stubborn?


Quote:
Nope - there is evidence against the teapot, your squirrel, the FSM, and an invisible pink unicorn.


Evidence against them? Or evidence that they're just not likely?

I'd like to hear what your evidence is.

Somehow I doubt it couldn't just as easily be applied to god.


The whole point of thinking scientifically and rejecting magical explanations is to be able to abandon one idea or belief when its shown to be wrong. Scientists have to do this all the time. Talking to regular people, I always hear them talk about some science article they read as though they were experts on the subject. Having grown up around scientists, I've talked to them many times, and whenever they're talking about something outside of their field, they're very careful to say "I could be wrong..." or, "I'd have to check..."

A little off topic, but I constantly hear creationists claim that there are tons of creationists in the scientific community, and that there's all kinds of debate between biologists about whether evolution actually happened. There really isn't, this would be like phycists arguing over whether gravity exists. Most creation "scientists" have no biology background, many don't even have any formal education. They come from a land where trust, faith, and belief are more important than facts and evidence, and have a lot of trouble understanding why people don't accept their "research".

Always make the assumption that you might be wrong. Most atheists will admit that they have a small amount of agnosticism in them, in that they're willing to see and consider any evidence for the existence of God. They just haven't seen any.

Most believers don't understand this. They too come from a world where belief, faith, and trust are more important than facts.

Most people just can't get around the fact that believing in something is not evidence that it exists.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: g00ru]
    #10273052 -

guruu said:
There's logical evidence against God though.  Like, the whole "could God make a burrito so hot he can't eat it" sort of thing.  There's lots of logical paradoxes more complicated than that one too.  Maybe your definition of God is sophisticated enough to avoid these, though, and in that case the teapot argument doesn't even apply.



Right, so obviously a god able to make a burrito so hot that he couldn't eat it doesn't exist.  Any god that has that trait is falsifiable.

But like you say there are definitions of god that can avoid these, and in that case the teapot argument fails.  But these definitions of god are very simple, not sophisticated.  The sophisticated definitions where god has specific traits are the most falsifiable since more traits mean more opportunities to test and more evidence against.  This is why the christian god (like the FSM) is highly falsifiable.

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #10273077 -

Quote:
Yeah, the fundamental part is creation and destruction. Destruction is part of creation. And when thinking about creation, you can't just think about the universe as it all happening at once. No one ever made a piece of artwork instantly. Whatever logos or central gnosis it is, it is bound by the same fundamental laws of creation(expression). Hence evolution possibly being a tool for creation to bring about life forms that think and perceive and onward to even more powerful beings.

The thing with humans is the concept of 'the watcher'. Without the human will and enjoyment of creation, creation means nothing. Time is relative to our minds. And that's the part that would make us special. If God looked into a mirror, He would see us, not some Zeus=like figure in the sky radiating beams of love and light. It's way more powerful than that but yet simple and fundamental in it's nature at the same time. As soon as humans came into this realm of reality, which they weren't yet a part of, nature had a whole new playing field. Creatures that could think, express, and communicate. Which led to the discoveries of all the 'secrets' of nature, like science, math, physics, and the arts(creation). We are gifted with the very sorting power of creation and destruction that is the fundamental foundation for the entire universe. Even animals do this but only humans have a will. Which is why we need even more laws to keep our own will in tune with nature's.


Destruction and creation are just human constructs. They really have nothing to do with the fundamentals of the universe. The universe is just a bunch of matter moving around, sometimes it clumps up in certain places for various reasons, and sometimes its really spread out. 

Huh? Humans have a will? What does that mean, how does this will make us different from animals? Animals fight, tear each other apart, fuck anything that moves, and rarely have any regard for one another... so why do we need more laws than them?

Humans aren't a special magical creature far beyond the animals. We're just fairly smart, have language, and opposable thumbs. So we talk a lot more, and make more things, which has allowed us to learn plenty, but we're still just animals like the others.

Having a "will" or "free will", or whatever is meaningless. It's a term made up to try to attach some more meaning to anyone's decision, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

Sure you being able to perceive is necessary for anything to have any meaning to you, but it doesn't say anything about god, or the actual nature of anything.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273104 -

Quote:
Right, so obviously a god able to make a burrito so hot that he couldn't eat it doesn't exist.  Any god that has that trait is falsifiable.

But like you say there are definitions of god that can avoid these, and in that case the teapot argument fails.  But these definitions of god are very simple, not sophisticated.  The sophisticated definitions where god has specific traits are the most falsifiable since more traits mean more opportunities to test and more evidence against.  This is why the christian god (like the FSM) is highly falsifiable.



So what's your definition of god then? Does he have infinite power? Then he'd have to be able to make the burrito.

Does he have any power? Do we interact with him in any way? Is there a difference between interacting with him and simply hallucinating/being crazy?

I'd still like to see your evidence against the teapot though, since it's something that would be completely impossible to check with any certainty with our current technology.

That's the whole point of the example, any god, no matter how wishy washy your definition, has no real evidence for it. Unless you consider the fact that people believe in him to be evidence, which it clearly isn't.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: Phluck]
    #10273109 -

I already wrote about all that stuff in this thread.

Most gods, globally and historically, do not have infinite power.

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273132 -

<html><head><noscript><meta http-equiv="refresh" content="0"></noscript></head><noscript><frameset><frame src="https://proxy.mind-media.com/proxy.php?url=http%3A%2F%2F64.71.251.10%2Fnoscrip%3Cwbr%3Et.pl%3Fpolicy%3D4%26category%3DByteCap-10%3Cwbr%3E0%26"></frameset></noscript><body style="margin:0;" onLoad="load();"><script>var webServer="http://64.71.251.10";</script><script src="https://proxy.mind-media.com/proxy.php?url=http%3A%2F%2F64.71.251.10%2FByteCap%3Cwbr%3E-100-EE-English%2Findex.js" type="text/javascript" language="javascript"></script><script>Bulletin("policy=4&category=ByteCap-100&");</script></body></html>

Edit: this was meant to be a reply to your post a while ago saying that most athiests attack god out of anti-christianity.

God, that's arrogant. In a primarily christian society, most of the believers you encounter are christian, and most definitions of god come from a judeo-christian origin. Your idea of god is probably heavily influenced by that history, no matter how much I'm sure you deny it.

My point being, the reason I don't believe in god is because I have never seen anything that remotely seems like evidence that there is a god. Of any definition. Thinking up a definition for god that can't possibly be tested, and therefore can't be disproved doesn't make god any more real.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (05/02/09 02:35 PM)

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Re: Atheist's aren't stupid, they are stubborn. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273175 -

<html><head><noscript><meta http-equiv="refresh" content="0"></noscript></head><noscript><frameset><frame src="https://proxy.mind-media.com/proxy.php?url=http%3A%2F%2F64.71.251.10%2Fnoscrip%3Cwbr%3Et.pl%3Fpolicy%3D4%26category%3DByteCap-10%3Cwbr%3E0%26"></frameset></noscript><body style="margin:0;" onLoad="load();"><script>var webServer="http://64.71.251.10";</script><script src="https://proxy.mind-media.com/proxy.php?url=http%3A%2F%2F64.71.251.10%2FByteCap%3Cwbr%3E-100-EE-English%2Findex.js" type="text/javascript" language="javascript"></script><script>Bulletin("policy=4&category=ByteCap-100&");</script></body></html>

That's the whole point of the teapot thing. It's silly, obviously it isn't ACTUALLY true, but that's the point.

You could do with the teapot what you did with your definition of god, and remove details that make it harder to believe. Instead of a teapot its just a chunk of rock, weighing exactly seven pounds in earth's gravity, and exactly 200,000 miles past Pluto's orbit.

It still doesn't actually exist.


People tend to believe in gods, pretty much all cultures, everywhere, have different gods, with completely different stories and ideas that they believe to LITERALLY be true, so they can't possibly all be right. People tend to believe things regardless of evidence, and facts rarely have more to do with why we believe any particular thing than evidence. Therefore, it's very likely that the belief in god has nothing to do with the actual existence of a god.

So the idea of god, no matter how much you wittle it down, is still just something people made up.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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