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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: zouden]
    #9666491 -

> Certificate of live birth.  That's all that is required.

Might want to give that old Constitution another read.  It actually doesn't mention anything at all about a birth certificate.  Somebody born in Russia can get a US Certificate of live birth.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Seuss]
    #9666502 -

Seuss said:
> Certificate of live birth.  That's all that is required.

Might want to give that old Constitution another read.  It actually doesn't mention anything at all about a birth certificate.  Somebody born in Russia can get a US Certificate of live birth.


The constitution doesn't list ANY requirements.

The courts have been satisfied.  Whether or not partisans on the internet are satisfied is of no consequence.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Seuss]
    #9667189 -

> The constitution doesn't list ANY requirements.

Are you serious?

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:
Quote:
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.


Also, you claimed earlier "He provided documentation proving his place of birth", so wtf is it?

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Seuss]
    #9667276 -

Seuss said:
> The constitution doesn't list ANY requirements.

Are you serious?

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:
Quote:
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.


Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.  I said the constitution does not mention any standards as to what PROVES "natural born citizen" status.

Please try to keep up.  Thanks.

Seuss said:
Also, you claimed earlier "He provided documentation proving his place of birth", so wtf is it? 


Already posted.  Read the thread.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

Edited by TGRR (01/23/09 09:25 PM)

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: TGRR]
    #9667316 -

> I said the constitution does not mention any standards as to what PROVES "natural born citizen" status.

No, you did not.  You said, "The constitution doesn't list ANY requirements."

Your emphasis on ANY.  Your wording exactly.  I can't help it if you are not clear in your claims.  I replied to your statement showing that the Constitution does indeed list several (three to be precise) requirements.

> Already posted.  Read the thread.

I've read the thread and have not seen anything that proves that Barry was born in the US.  Your unsubstantiated claims do not constitute proof.  I want to see a picture of the long version of his birth certificate.  With that, I will shut up and concede that you were correct.  Until then, I will assume that you are wrong.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Seuss]
    #9667359 -

I haven't been following the story very much (I don't think it's that interesting) but I thought the "certificate of live birth" is all that Hawaii provides.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: zouden]
    #9667904 -

zouden said:
Okay okay... I was thinking of the 2000 election and how the supreme court ruled on that. I think this might be a similar case. It's up to them to decide if the constitution has been violated.

Seuss, couldn't you sue the government in the supreme court? That's what I'm getting at.



I don't know exactly what you mean, but the supreme court only ruled that the florida supreme court's order was unconstitutional as it was an unequal application of the law.


Gore sued and was able to get an order that wasn't provided for under the law.  The court just made up the law- ignoring what was existing.  The supreme court overturned that order.  That's it.


Just saying in case you share the popular belief of many here in america that the supreme court ruled Bush the winner or anything when all they did was overturn the florida supreme court's order with a bipartisan (party's of appointment) justice count in the majority.  I agree with this decision.  The more controversial part was the order that the recount stop in floria, but it was an application of florida law.  I don't know if I agree with this or not.  Just saying they didn't decide the election as such but only overturned the fl court and stopped them from ordering more recounts (which I believe would have been contrary to law anyways).


not saying you don't agree - just throwing that out there

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: TGRR]
    #9667951 -

TGRR said:
zouden said:
Seuss, couldn't you sue the government in the supreme court? That's what I'm getting at.


The court has refused to hear any such suits, as the lower courts have already been satisfied that he is a citizen...and since he isn't challenging the actual requirements, SCOTUS says its not their problem.

Thing is, if he hadn't proven his citizenship by law, McCain would have flogged him with that mercilessly.

This is just a desperation move on the part of a few folks who can't get it through their head that they actually lost.


This isn't true.  Please name the lower courts that have been satisfied that he is a citizen?  A citation to the order or decision please.


Zouden, yeah you could sue, but what seuss alludes to is this:  The constitution requires certain things.  It also vests interest in the courts to resolve cases with an actual case or contreversy.  The courts have ruled that an elector of this country has no case or controversy with a president serving or being elected that is unqualified because any harm is too dilute.

That's bullshit.  The courts have said it doesn't matter if he is a secret al qaeda operative from pakistan, born and raised (my hypothetical but the rulling applies to such situation).  Even if he admited it tomorrow, the court orders make it irrelevant as to the ability of a citezin to sue.  Apparently you have no right to demand your president be eligible for the office in the constitution.

Zouden:  What makes you think the supreme court is responsible for defending the constitution?  Everyone is.  The supreme court is vested with the authority to decide what laws mean- that's it.  We all decide what the constitution means and we should all defend it.

If you are talking of constitutional rights or provisions you would do well to distinguish between what is said in the document, what is the controlling view of this, and what is actionable re: the controlling view.  These are all different things.  The problem is not htat the constitution requires no birth-citezinship but rather the courts have decided it isn't actioanble by an elector of this country.  Big difference.  Just like the law requires you not murder someone but if I do you can't do shit about it cuz its not actioanble by you- everyone agrees what the law is you just can't do shit about it.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: johnm214]
    #9667985 -

>because any harm is too dilute.

Really? Which court was this? SCOTUS?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: TGRR]
    #9668020 -

TGRR said:
Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.  I said the constitution does not mention any standards as to what PROVES "natural born citizen" status.

Please try to keep up.  Thanks.



1.  No you didn't

2.  What is your point? You seem to conflate the demonstration of the fact with the truth of the fact for one, and for two: you're observation is mundane and ov no relevance.

Did Seuss claim differently?  Are you saying cuz no list of what proves such that no evidence is required?  That's the only thing I can even imagine but even that makes no sense for obvious reasons.


I love that you also said this

Quote:
TGRR said:
Certificate of live birth.  That's all that is required..



I thought nothing was required? 

What is your point?

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9668068 -



--------------------
</end thread>

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: Seuss]
    #9668215 -

Seuss said:
> I said the constitution does not mention any standards as to what PROVES "natural born citizen" status.

No, you did not.  You said, "The constitution doesn't list ANY requirements."



When you get done parsing and want to actually discuss the subject, let me know.  I'm not wasting any time on this sort of bullshit.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: johnm214]
    #9668227 -

johnm214 said:
This isn't true.  Please name the lower courts that have been satisfied that he is a citizen?  A citation to the order or decision please.



It sure as fuck is true.

Here ya go, Spanky:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/26/1689515.aspx


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: johnm214]
    #9668231 -

johnm214 said:
I thought nothing was required? 

What is your point?


Your inability to follow a thread is not my problem.  Sorry.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: TGRR]
    #9668340 -

Quote:
Other courts presented with similar challenges have reached the same conclusion, ruling that there is no general legal right to sue over the Constitution's eligibility requirements.


So I was completely wrong about that. I really thought anyone could challenge it. So then, I wonder, who does have the right to challenge it?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: zouden]
    #9668355 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Other courts presented with similar challenges have reached the same conclusion, ruling that there is no general legal right to sue over the Constitution's eligibility requirements.


So I was completely wrong about that. I really thought anyone could challenge it. So then, I wonder, who does have the right to challenge it?


The other candidate(s) maybe?

Otherwise, no president would EVER actually take office.  You could bog him down in injunctions for the whole 4 years, no matter what.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: TGRR]
    #9668376 -

Actually, I think you're right. It would have to be done by another candidate. From that same article:
Quote:
In dismissing Berg's complaint, a federal judge in Pennsylvania found that he failed to meet the basic test required for sustaining a lawsuit, because he couldn't show how the inclusion of Obama's name on the ballot would cause him -- apart from others -- some particular harm. Berg's stake, the judge said, "is no greater and his status no more differentiated than that of millions of other voters."


Whereas a candidate, already on the ballot, could easily argue that inclusion of Obama's name on the ballot would have caused him some particular harm.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: zouden]
    #9668394 -

zouden said:
>because any harm is too dilute.

Really? Which court was this? SCOTUS?


Of note is that in the US the supreme court seldom has original jurisdiction over cases so the rulings come from below first.  There's been one case I'm aware of in US Courts re Obama, rather than state courts which have passed on several though their rulings on federal issues don't bind federal courts.

Eastern District of Pennsylvania Cert. to Supreme Court denied
Berg v Obama

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/28/

Quote:
The Complaint and request for TRO alleged that Obama is not eligible to run for the Office of President of the United States because he is not a “natural born citizen” as required by...

Plaintiff attempts to establish standing on several additional grounds, but his arguments
do not solve the fundamental problem that the harm he alleges does not constitute an injury in
fact...

To reiterate: a candidate’s ineligibility under the Natural Born Citizen Clause does not result in an injury in fact
to voters.

Emphasis mine


The supreme court has passed on the issue though in other cases.

Ex parte Levitt, 302 U.S. 633, 633


Also, I wouldn't relly too much on news for legal stuff.  They're almost always twisted versions of what was actually held or what the law actually says- in the US anyways.

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: zouden]
    #9668400 -

You have to think the Mccain camp did some digging and found those allegations to be completely baseless.

I can't see any Republican hack passing up a chance to throw around some smears.

If they were true, you would have heard them everywhere.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Obama Flubbing The Oath [Re: johnm214]
    #9668417 -

Indeed. That confirms my idea that the best person to have challenged Obama's eligibility would have been McCain. Funny that he didn't.

edit: :grin:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (01/24/09 12:29 AM)

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