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The phenomenology of death.
    #9303481 -

You have five seconds until you pull the trigger of your loaded .45 ACP that is currently placed against your right temple.

Describe the experience of death.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303513 -

Anyone who had the experience to give you an accurate answer no longer has the ability to respond to your post.  Everyone else would just be bullshitting. :shrug:

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303540 -

I realize this, but give me your best guess regardless.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303558 -

My guess is that there IS no experience of death.  We may have a brief experience of dying, but with a close-range gunshot to the head, even this is quite unlikely.  Our brain functions would be interrupted instantaneously, ending the "I" on the spot.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303584 -

The bull's "I"?


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303602 -

Ending what we take to be "I"...


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9303665 -

ok so it might be very much like that puzzle with the tortoise and the hare, where the reference point of time keeps shrinking and essentially, the hare never beats the tortoise. i will assume you know this old mathematical jumble.

well just like time can seem to stretch out when in certain trips
maybe time stretches out in experience during the process of death

so that we spend near-eternity in the moment before death

according to the very same principles that allow us to experience what seems like aeons in the space of minutes on certain drug trips.

im just throwing a potential mechanism for eternity out there...


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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303675 -

So our experience simply ceases?

This is a rather mind-boggling concept to grasp.  I think the closest parallel we have is that of entering into deep sleep; we have no memories of the occasion but only regain our sense of "I" after the fact and when we sleep into REM dreaming.

It seems to me that if one were to somehow stop the activity of our brain (cryogenically preserve in some fashion, or through nanotechnology) for a few years, and then start it again, our consciousness would not notice the time in between.  Phenomenologically speaking, we would have a continuous experience up until the freezing and then instantaneously notice that we were in a different time and location upon waking up.  All this is contingent upon is the reconstitution of the atoms and molecules that make up your brain in the exact state that it was prior to the halting.

Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain.  It's not very likely (in fact, it's very, very, very unlikely), but it's still possible.  Do we have any choice but to conclude that our experience of death would simply be continuous up until the gunshot and then immediately aware of whatever situation comprises the new formulation of your brain?

In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible?  Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?

What if a sufficiently advanced civilization in the future were capable of simulating all possible brains on some sort of substrate?  Would our consciousnesses upon death instantaneously wake up into this simulation?  Could this be a modern interpretation of the after-life?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9303687 -

Noteworthy said:
well just like time can seem to stretch out when in certain trips
maybe time stretches out in experience during the process of death

so that we spend near-eternity in the moment before death


Yes, I've thought of this before.  Unfortunately I don't think the perception of time can be extended to full eternity, though (presumably subjective time perception is governed by the firing rate of neurons; these can be increased so as to give the illusion of stretched out time, but fire too fast and the neurons die).

Still an interesting idea, though, although it would be rather horrific in practice.  Would you sit there for eternity watching the bloodspattered bits of your brain drip down the wall, permanently alone with nothing to do but think?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303825 -

Quote:
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible?  Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?


Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.

Our experience of consciousness occurs while our body lives, and it is created by the interaction of our living brain with our environment.  After all, the physical aspect of our brain continues intact if we die of a heart attack (no physical brain damage), so this would imply that our consciousness would continue within the physical brain after death.

Death = cessation of brain function.  Cessation of brain function = no consciousness.  Those who claim that consciousness exists absent a functioning brain have ZERO evidence to support their claim.  All signs point to "game over" when the brain ceases to function.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303857 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible?  Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?


Even if the physical qualities of your brain were to be replicated at some point in the future, the experience of consciousness would belong to the individual body where that brain resides. "You" would no more recur within that physical structure than a deceased identical twin would recur within the body of his/her sibling.


Hey, hold on a minute.  Do you have the same body that you did five minutes ago?  Cells die all the time; your collection of neurons at this precise instant is not the same collection that it will be five minutes from now--and yet your consciousness remains continuous.

I'm not claiming consciousness can exist without a functioning brain; the point of the thought experiment is that if one recreates a functioning brain with an identical neural structure to when the old brain died, one would have to assume that consciousness would continue unabated in the new brain.  A similar example can be noted in the thought experiment involving teleportation of one's body: if we destroy the old body and create an identical one in another location, would your consciousness be instantaneously transported to the new body?

Edited by deCypher (11/24/08 12:35 PM)

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303916 -

deCypher said:
It seems to me that if one were to somehow stop the activity of our brain (cryogenically preserve in some fashion, or through nanotechnology) for a few years, and then start it again, our consciousness would not notice the time in between.  Phenomenologically speaking, we would have a continuous experience up until the freezing and then instantaneously notice that we were in a different time and location upon waking up.  All this is contingent upon is the reconstitution of the atoms and molecules that make up your brain in the exact state that it was prior to the halting.

Now, what if at some point, far off in the distant future, a chaotic shuffling of molecules happened to produce an identical copy of your brain.  It's not very likely (in fact, it's very, very, very unlikely), but it's still possible.  Do we have any choice but to conclude that our experience of death would simply be continuous up until the gunshot and then immediately aware of whatever situation comprises the new formulation of your brain?

In this case, is death (in the sense of a permanent cessation of consciousness) even possible?  Or do dead people simply wake up at some far-off, statistically unlikely yet sure to happen given enough of a long time-span, point in the future?

What if a sufficiently advanced civilization in the future were capable of simulating all possible brains on some sort of substrate?  Would our consciousnesses upon death instantaneously wake up into this simulation?  Could this be a modern interpretation of the after-life?


Wow I like that :yesnod:

I used to think about how cool it would be to be a time traveler through cryogenic freezing. Applying this concept to death is pretty awesome. You could also apply it to the big bang big crunch theory, where in the next big bang everything happens over again. So when you die, you're experience is that of instantly being born again as the same person.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303917 -

Actually, most of our brain cells live for a long time.  Those which relate to memory live as long as you do. 

How would "you" be the one having experiences within an identical brain?  If your body dies, your experience STOPS.  If someone else somehow exactly replicated your neural network by having 100% identical experiences and cognitive reaction, had an identical genetic makeup, nervous system, etc...it would still be THEIR brain and their experience.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303938 -

Gun pressed to your temple, you decide that this is it. No more waiting, end the suffering now.

OK, the gun is cocked, it's there, damn, is it in the right spot? Better not fire until you're sure. What if you hit a spot that doesn't kill you and leaves you a bed-ridden IV-sucking vegetable wracked with constant pain? Better make this right. Adjust, readjust, imagine the trajectory and what's going to hit, damn, what about recoil, maybe the aim will get thrown off before the bullet even leaves the chamber.

By now your hand is sweating, palm damp and moist, droplets sliding down the trigger and along your wrist, and trembling. There goes your leg, too, the whole thing is bouncing up and down like the temperature just dropped fifty degrees, you can't keep still, you're shaking and shivering all up and down, but you're still going to do it, as soon as you're sure you're lined up right.

Damn, this is going to be messy, blood everywhere, something pretty fucked-up to see for whoever's going to find you, rotting and fetid and covered in flies and maggots. If you fail this is going to hurt a lot and cost a lot too and be really fucking embarrassing and miserable.

It'll be over so soon, so soon, damn how can that be, how can that entire life be erased in a second, what's that going to be like. Quaking, the gun's there, it's cocked now, finger giving a little pressure on the trigger, but it's quaking with you. You feel like you've been awake for a week, maybe raped, mind dragged through a ditch, eyes bleary and blood-shot, feeling deep needles all around their outsides.

Quaking, quaking, you pull!

[Not at the temple, that's one of the worst places on the head to aim, but inside the mouth pointed back at the brain stem]

Voila, your consciousness is (still) in other bodies, each body feeling unique, awareness tied to specific body and experience, no feeling of having died save for reading about it in the newspaper or being a close friend of the victim, a close friend hearing the news, going to the funeral, and quaking, quaking...

Maybe.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303940 -

Veritas said:
Actually, most of our brain cells live for a long time.  Those which relate to memory live as long as you do. 

How would "you" be the one having experiences within an identical brain?  If your body dies, your experience STOPS.  If someone else somehow exactly replicated your neural network by having 100% identical experiences and cognitive reaction, had an identical genetic makeup, nervous system, etc...it would still be THEIR brain and their experience.


Thats why every cell, including memory cells (although do we really know exactly how that works?) would have to be identical. In that case, its you. Because thats all you are.

Edited by Hahzist (11/24/08 12:44 PM)

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303944 -

Do you have any good links for that assertion?  I was under the impression that neurons, just like any other cells, die and get replaced (neurogenesis in particular seems to take place in the hippocampus and the olfactory bulb).

Claiming that your experience stops if your body dies is merely conjecture, nothing more.  But I do agree on general principle.

However, what if we were to replace a single neuron in your brain with an electronic transistor that performs the same function?  And likewise, if we gradually extend this to every neuron?  At no point would there be a loss of consciousness; only a transferring of mental experience onto a different physical substrate.  This is the same process as if we were constructing a new, identical brain--only in the one case the transition is slow and in the other the transition is fast and involves instantaneously destroying the old brain while creating the new one.

Let me ask you, if the only difference between the old and new brain is the location of the atoms, and conscious experience absolutely stops upon destruction of the old, then how could we ever move our own brains around in space?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: Veritas]
    #9303946 -

My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above.  He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.

This guy was no bullshitter.  Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.

What was going on here, Veritas?

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deranger]
    #9303962 -

deranger said:
My best friend when I was in high school told me he had a NDE experience. He drown in a swimming pool and saw his body from 50 feet above.  He saw his parents dive into the pool and pull him out.

This guy was no bullshitter.  Yet, it's possible... but I don't see why he would've lied to me about something like that.

What was going on here, Veritas?


The power of belief plus a very sophisticated reality modeling system present in the brain?

OBEs and lucid dreams that appear to mimic reality exactly occur all the time; do we call this equally as real as consensus reality?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: zannennagara]
    #9303969 -

zannennagara said:
Voila, your consciousness is (still) in other bodies, each body feeling unique, awareness tied to specific body and experience, no feeling of having died save for reading about it in the newspaper or being a close friend of the victim, a close friend hearing the news, going to the funeral, and quaking, quaking...


I like it.  Fears of quantum immortality would plague me in the actual event, though.  What if my consciousness succeeds in surviving into the timelines where I become brain-damaged from a faulty shot rather than die?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The phenomenology of death. [Re: deCypher]
    #9303975 -

so you're fairly sure of what happened to him?

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