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General Interest > Money Matters
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future!
    #8958309 -

Money is Debt because all money is loaned out at interest.

Eventually, ALL the money must be paid back to the bankers, and the only way to keep the system going is to continually pump exponentially escalating amounts of money into the system. Back in the early days, money was considered simply as a medium for trading actual assets rather than a promise to repay debts. An exponentially increasing economy is not compatible with a sustainable society. Eventually, the bankers own everything... Like our house, all our hard assets, simply because the interest to be paid back on all of our money far exceeds the amount of money in the first place... and with fractional reserve banking requirements essentially gone, this increase in debt is literally infinite. Why is wallstreet crashing? Why is the world economy crashing? Because the big bankers who sit on their ass and don't produce any real value, any real assets, simply create money to collect debt on, infinitely and exponentially untill we are all slaves to a dollar and fiat money system that is worth nothing.

How do we fix this problem? Re-destribute the wealth. Back in the old days, charging intrest on loans was called usury and was illegal, considered immoral and parasitic because those who lent money simply collected all the wealth of the society in the long run. To fix this, we need to make Intrest illegal, and get these parasites off our backs! We need to re-distribute the worlds wealth evenly and not charge intrest and keep government taxxes so they can still run to maintain the economy's infrustructure, so that we don't have exponentially de-valued dollars, with wealth centralized to any one particluar group or person... Or rather not have any government taxxes and have the debts and intrest re-distributed evenly across the whole economy, back into EVERYONE's pockets, not just one pocket. We need a sustainable, and consistent monetary system for a sustainable and renewable economy, and planet earth.

This video goes in detail to explain exactly what I am talking about. If you can get this through your head, please do so, so that when our economies inevitably go poop, we have some knowledge on how to fix things locally so we can stand up in our individual towns and restore true, morally acceptable, beneficial for all type public service money systems for the long run. We cannot accept the bankers and their parasitic schemes to eventually own every corporation, every real hard asset, because their system is designed to eventually own everything for nothing, while we are the one's that actually produce the worlds wealth, they just take advantage of it by creating money, and debt on that created money to be paid back, all out of thin air.

&hl=en

Let's get rid of the Federal Reserve, and these parasitic bankers that are de-valuing our dollar, and create ourselves a REAL sustainable, consistent money supply that constantly and exponentially decrease in value. We can do it by realizing that interest is immoral, and parasitic in the long run... and creating security by ensuring that the whole no matter what benefits by re-distributing the wealth evenly to everyone. Let's make banking a public service that works for the people rather than to impersonally enslave the people by a constantly and exponentially decreasing value of the dollars we are paid.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: JohnP]
    #8958381 -

sell ur refer crop while living in a bamboo hut on a mountain side...off the grid :lol:


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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: just me]
    #8958831 -

Yup, its a cyclical system. We are all doomed, oh no!

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: JohnP]
    #8959266 -

i'd love to see these guys hanged,  for real.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Shins]
    #8960349 -

Shins said:
i'd love to see these guys hanged,  for real.


Yeah that would certainly be nice, although I would be content with them simply giving up their strangle hold on the system without any blood being drawn... That way we could shove it in their faces just how great we can make the world... it would be punishment enough I believe... because the power they hold is all they really are inside... take that away and nothing's left.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: JohnP]
    #8962154 -

So if an orginazation couldn't charge interest on loans what would be the incentive for giving out loans?

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: JohnP]
    #8962368 -

Money only is debt if you use credit to purchase things. The only debt I owe is a small amount of student loans.

If you purchase things with cash, money does not equal debt.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8962543 -

The federal reserve notes are transferred to the U.S. gov't at INTEREST.  In order to pay off the interest attached to the federal reserve notes printed a larger amount of federal reserve notes are printed.

The federal reserve is not a government entity, it is an unconstitutional illegal economic terrorist organization.  The President that allowed this to happen in 1913, Woodrow Wilson, said the Federal Reserve Act would cause the destruction of the American economy in approximately 100 years!

So yes, federal reserve notes create a downward cyclical spiral of ever increasing inflation and eventual total economic collapse.

The current bailouts in our economy amount to Fascism.  The last political figure that did this sort of thing is Adolph Hitler.  Interesting that Dubya's Granddaddy was a Nazi sympathizer who laundered money for the Nazis.  That was why Prescott Bush was not able to run for the Presidency.

Prescott Bush was censured by the Senate for his treasonous actions.  I think we should have put him in the Nuremburg trials.  Then we wouldn't have the mess we have today.

Goddamnit it's like an Indiana Jones nightmare...  Nazis Everywhere!!!


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8963453 -

Money does equal debt, debt to other nations like China. The money you have right now, a good amount of it is owed directly to the Chinese government, the US simply allows us to throw it at each other in exchange for goods, in reality its just a reflection of our countries own economic state, and when things go bad, inflation happens.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #8963464 -

The more you know :shineon:

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8964410 -

Redstorm said:
Money only is debt if you use credit to purchase things. The only debt I owe is a small amount of student loans.

If you purchase things with cash, money does not equal debt.


Yes, but all money starts out as debt, ie government bonds or as a loan from a bank. You may obtain money without getting into debt, but the money first appeared in the economy through the sale of a bond or a loan or something like that with the expectation of interest.

I think thats what he was saying.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8964457 -

adjust said:
Redstorm said:
Money only is debt if you use credit to purchase things. The only debt I owe is a small amount of student loans.

If you purchase things with cash, money does not equal debt.


Yes, but all money starts out as debt, ie government bonds or as a loan from a bank. You may obtain money without getting into debt, but the money first appeared in the economy through the sale of a bond or a loan or something like that with the expectation of interest.

I think thats what he was saying.


yeah, anyone who doesn't understand out monetary system should read up

ill provide one good vid link;

[url=
9]money as debt[/url]

"Paul Grignon's 47-minute animated presentation of "Money as Debt" tells in very simple and effective graphic terms what money is and how it is being created. It is an entertaining way to get the message out. The Cowichan Citizens Coalition and its "Duncan Initiative" received high praise from those who previewed it. I recommend it as a painless but hard-hitting educational tool and encourage the widest distribution and use by all groups concerned with the present unsustainable monetary system in Canada and the United States.«"


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (09/21/08 07:04 PM)

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Shins]
    #8964965 -

if we made interest rates illegal our economy would come to a grinding hault.

I didn't watch the 47min video, because I don't have time for such things (even to save the world!), but I'm assuming it lays out a new mechanism to replace financial markets?

Since financial markets primary purpose is to funnel the monies of those who save (investors) into the hands of those who borrow (corporations) in order to invest in their company to create additional value for their corporation, their shareholders, and society as a whole. 

What is the incentive for these investors to provide cash flow to corporations for growth?  interest on their loans!

-----------

anyways, now that i've explained that simple simple process.  can someone tell me how this video plans to keep our economy moving if our main incentive for funneling money from those who have it to those who need it is illegal?

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: memes]
    #8965743 -

but why does everyone think they deserve money for free?

why cant people be happy with working for it without having to worry about it depreciating?

or be happy with only dividends from the companies?


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (09/21/08 11:34 PM)

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: memes]
    #8965924 -

meams said:
What is the incentive for these investors to provide cash flow to corporations for growth?  interest on their loans!


The problem I have is when governments sell treasury bonds to a central bank to finance themselves. It makes absolutely no sense for a government to pay interest to it's own central bank... I also doubt it's good in the long run for a central bank to "infuse" cash into failing organizations.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8966138 -

sure, the government pays interest to it's own central bank... but the 'income' the Fed generates is used for the same things the Treasury would.

My fed challenge team meets tomorrow, I'm positive we'll be talking about this AIG bailout in detail.  I'll jump in tomorrow after our meeting with some more info.

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: memes]
    #8966171 -

Then... why do they pay interest at all? Answer: Because it forces them to sell more bonds to the central bank to pay off the ones that are maturing.

And you do realize the money used in this bailout was yours, correct?

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: Shins]
    #8966915 -

Shins said:
but why does everyone think they deserve money for free?

why cant people be happy with working for it without having to worry about it depreciating?

or be happy with only dividends from the companies?


im happy to work for no money.

im not happy to have my money taken from me


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8967179 -

adjust said:
Then... why do they pay interest at all? Answer: Because it forces them to sell more bonds to the central bank to pay off the ones that are maturing.

And you do realize the money used in this bailout was yours, correct?


i'm a little confused as to what you suggest they do instead.

as of now, the Fed makes money.  It uses the money to fund various monetary policy mechanisms, most notably (currently) the Term Auction Facility (TAF).  What the TAF does is provides predetermined amounts of discount window credit (their profits) to eligible borrowers for terms of 28 days.  The importance of this new liquidity mechanism is huge.  Before this system, when depository institutions used the discount window for their source of funding - the act carried a stigma associated with the discount window:  banks' are concerned that market participants will draw adverse inferences about their financial condition if their act of 'borrowing from the Fed' was to be made public (and borrowing from the discount window is public information, since it is taxpayer dollars).  The other shortfall of the discount window is that the loans under such arrangements were normally for 3-7 days:  far too short a time to allow borrowing institutions to overcome their liquidity woes.

So - the fed eliminates these problems by opening up TAF:
1) Loans are for longer periods, 28 days, allowing institutions to remedy more of their problems over the course of the loan
2) the TAF auctions pre-determined amounts to a list of anonomous borrowers.  It is a silent auction, in which institutions submit the amount they want, and the rate they are willing to pay for it.  The Fed then puts these in order from highest interest rate, to lowest, and delves out the predetermined funds starting from the top of the list. 

This allows firms to get the liquidity they need, at the price they determine, for a period of time that allows them to actually solve some of their issues.

It is programs like THESE that are keeping our economy afloat in such tumultuous times.  Who is paying for them?  we are - all of us.  I consider it my tax dollars put to good use.  You should too.



i'm late for my Fed group, chao!

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Re: Money IS Debt! Sustainable Economy for a Sustainable Future! [Re: memes]
    #8968282 -

I think all it does is it causes financial institutions to change the way they manage risk.

It's just the same as welfare... if there was no welfare or social programs, people would evaluate risk differently and their behavior would change. When there are no social programs there is much higher risk for the individual, and they behave differently.

In the case of corporations, I don't think there should be any handouts, whether it's in the form of subsidies, preferential tax or multi billion dollar bailouts.

People forget the reason the US is in this mess is really just greed, plain and simple. People took on very unfavorable mortgage terms with the assumption that prices would skyrocket before the initial term came due.

The opposite happened, and you should have to pay for your actions (whether you are a bank, a borrower or an investor in mortgage backed securities). Why should anyone who was not involved in this foolishness have to pay one cent?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Money Matters
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