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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
    #7477301 -

when people decided that torture was wrong.
when people decided that slavery was wrong.
when people decided you didn't have to do whatever the pope said
when people decided you should have the freedom to say what you like
when people decided you should get a say in the political system.

need i go on?

these subjective beliefs were not always around. although i'm sure they caused problems, they seem to work much better than the previous systems.

edit: my logic is irrefutable! my theories are undeniable!
i channel the mind of god, in mental combat i defeat all challengers!!!

edit edit: sorry, but its very satisfying to have an such a powerful answer to what i'm guessing was a rhetorical question.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
    #7477333 -

Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.

I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.

For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.

I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.

In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.


--------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7477341 -

truekimbo2 said:
when people decided that torture was wrong.



So that solved it then. All those terror suspects being tortured should feel better knowing whatever is being done to them is "wrong". The Bush Administration sure thinks it's "right" and will continue its practice.

Quote:
when people decided that slavery was wrong.


So the American Civil War must have just been cake and pie, eh? I may be mistaken but didn't over 200,000 men die because someone decided slavery was wrong and pissed off those who thought it was right?

Quote:
when people decided you didn't have to do whatever the pope said


Yet they still persecute gays and lesbians for choosing an alternative lifestyle based on a differing opinion of what is right and what is wrong.

Quote:
when people decided you should have the freedom to say what you like


I'm sorry. I thought we were arguing morality, not natural rights.

Quote:
when people decided you should get a say in the political system.


I do not consider this having anything to do with morality.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
    #7477374 -

Not to mention the last two still cause problems (extremist religions and governments.)


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!

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
    #7477388 -

Children should be taught basic, objective skills such as reading writing and arithmetic. These are skills which are the most broadly applicable to "every day" life.

Right now, children are already aware of "health". Ask any kid in school: "Is smoking bad?", "is eating at McDonald's bad?" and they will respons "yes". Kids know this stuff, but getting them to actually implement their beliefs is another matter.

The best way to improve the educational system is to engage the kids to a greater degree. Make kids WANT to learn.

"Make school sexier".

If this doesn't work, offer more incentives. Telling a 14 year old kid to "do well in school" because when your old it'll be worth it" doesn't click. Offering a kid something tangible for perfect attendance at the end of the week gives them much more to work for.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
    #7477422 -

natural rights could fall under the category of philosophy, which i feel should be taught to children from a young age in conjunction with morality.

political rights would also fall under morality i believe, since the prevailing thought for a long time was that the leaders (kings and priests) were divinely chosen to rule by god (and variations of this) and that the masses were lower people. that is how i meant it.

also, slavery was one cause among many for the civil war.

that being said, and in response to the rest of what you said,

so you would argue that those advancements were not worth it because they have not been implemented perfectly or without cost?
i don't quite understand, because yeah people are still tortured occasionally (in this country), but back in the day it was like an entertainment event to watch people get ripped apart by horses....

i don't get why you disagree with me, since i'm saying we should teach (not just tell) kids why being peaceful and not harming others is a good policy.

edit: badchad, i would say that what is good to eat and what is bad to eat, and how to get along with others is much more broadly applicable than reading writing or arithmatic... which is why its strange to me that we don't teach it.

also, yeah kids know that mcdonalds is bad because that what people tell them. they're just parroting. they don't know why, or how to see the reasons for themselves.
if you notice i definitely agree school should be more sensual (connected to the senses).

i don't get it, are you guys trying to say that it wouldn't work, or that it would work but its wrong to attempt to teach different things, or that it wouldn't work and its wrong.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7477436 -

I believe he's saying you assume there won't be a heavy cost. Just because the outcome may be better (it is subjective) doesn't mean there won't be strife in the shift.


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!

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: jewunit]
    #7477451 -

it would be wonderful if that kind of strife could result from changing the school system. it would mean that eyes got opened and change was on the way.

(similar to the way the education revolution in the 40's and 50's spawned the civil rights movement in the 60's and 70's)


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7477475 -

As taught in a formal "philosophy" class, I don't think children in high school and middle have the life-experience, or maturity to benefit from such subjects.

Kids get an adequate overview of what to eat in the food guide pyramid. What do you mean by "they don't know why". Are you suggesting we teach them advanced biochemistry so they understand fat metabolism and cellular changes underlying heart disease? In school I remember learning about heart disease, atherosclerosis and obesity. How much more do they need to know, to fully understand "why Mcdonald's is bad"?

I don't disagree with the touchy feely, "be nice to everyone" component of your "curriculum" but there is a lot of that going on already. When I was in high school, dodge ball was banned since it was too "rough", and partial dress codes enforced.

You'd also have to imagine how you would teach things, and how they would be assessed. If you've ever done it, there is much more to teaching than just thinking up the endpoint (a society of really nice people).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: MrKite1]
    #7477492 -

MrKite1 said:
Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.

I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.

For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.

I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.

In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.


I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in or didn't like school and they try to spin the whole thing into "it was too easy blah blah" when in reality they were just a fuckup in school. I was a fuckup in school...but I admit it.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
    #7477499 -

badchad said:
When I was in high school, dodge ball was banned since it was too "rough", and partial dress codes enforced.


haha  God...THIS is the real problem with education nowadays.  It is being dumbed down and pussified so that nobody feels like the "loser" or "left out".  It's effeminite and disgusting.  By the way, we had badass dodgeball tournaments in gym class where we wailed on each other with those balls.  :yesnod:

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7477510 -

truekimbo2 said:
do you agree with me that if there are social problems today, we can in part blame the upbringing of the generation that was most instrumental in creating the society we have today? 


Give me some examples.

truekimbo2 said:
and if you do agree with that, would you also agree that we can't force parents to instill good principles in children?


So the state should do it?  No thanks...let parents raise their own kids.  The government needs to stay the fuck out of my life.

truekimbo2 said:
all i'm saying is we need to experiment.


Well, so far I disagree with pretty much all of your assertions and suggestions and I would not want my kid exposed to such stuff in school.  :shrug:

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
    #7477559 -

While some of these are good ideas and could definitely show an impact, it all comes down to the parents. If a kid has shitty parents, generally it will fuck something up for the kid. While I think some changes in schooling could help alleviate some of these problems, parents will still have more influence than schools.

On the whole health note...I took a health class in High School. It was a joke. If there is to be more health type programs implemented they should be done early in a kids schooling, like kindergarten and first grade. By the time kids get into high school they already have well ingrained ideas on what they like to eat. There were plenty of fat kids at my high school. If we get these kids early and get it put in their brain that it's a good thing to live a healthy lifestyle maybe obesity wouldn't be such a problem for America.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction.

For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder.

Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.


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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7477584 -

do you agree with me that if there are social problems today, we can in part blame the upbringing of the generation that was most instrumental in creating the society we have today?

so you're undecided on the truth of this claim? i don't really have evidence for it at the moment, i can search around and get back to you on it if you like.

like i said, my plan pretty much hinges on that assumption.

you do agree that we can't force people how to parent their kids though.

do you guys even think we need a revolution?

also, you guys are just picking at little pieces, i wish you would stop that.
nothing is written in stone, i don't have a PHD in educational science, if you want specifics those are the ones i personally suggest that everyone turns to.



also on a side note, you guys seem to be proving my prejudice against the current education system. you seem to be assume i want teachers to teach morality and philosophy by telling the kids what to think and making sure the kids believe it: that very style of thinking is whats wrong with the education system.

the whole point is to give the kids the tools to think for themselves at an early age.

if kids want to argue they should be free too, and hopefully the teachers would help them forumulate their arguements.

BTW: the food pyramid is enough? to kids these days even understand difference between the nutritional content of whole wheat bread vs white bread?
not to mention several nutrition scientists argue that the food pyramid is wrong, and i think most would agree that its a gross generalization that shouldn't be followed exactly.

you asked what kids don't know about eating healthy, doesn't it worry you that you think the food pyramid should be able to teach kids what to eat? although i guess you weren't taught nutrition in school, so unless you developed an outside interest that process you do every day that keeps you alive you wouldn't know much about it...

i don't know, i'm kind of getting tired of responding.
unless other people comment (or someone makes a really good post) i'm going to wait till pt2 to continue responding.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7477598 -

RandalFlagg said:
MrKite1 said:
Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.

I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.

For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.

I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.

In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.


I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in or didn't like school and they try to spin the whole thing into "it was too easy blah blah" when in reality they were just a fuckup in school. I was a fuckup in school...but I admit it.


Well I'm sorry you were a fuckup in school. That is not the case for everyone, however.

I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in school or think they are fuckups, and it makes them feel better to think OTHER people are just "fuckups" too.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction.

For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder.

Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.


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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: circularvortex]
    #7477616 -

circularvortex said:
Well I'm sorry you were a fuckup in school.


Hey, don't worry about it.  I actually take some amount of pride in it.  :smirk:

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7477627 -

I'm having a difficult time trying to follow what you're saying and striving for. If you feel like it, could you present a more coherent and cogent argument on what is wrong with our society and why the educational system has anything to do with it?

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7477651 -

Your educational plan calls for deeper, analytical, and philosophical thinking. This is a good theory. Unfortunately, children simply don't have that ability. They aren't developed enough and are too immature.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7478142 -

I think truekimbo is giving kids too much credit; if no pressure is ever put on a kid, he will almost certainly act selfishly and have little desire in education. But Randal, you don't give kids enough credit. Threats aren't the only or the best way to work with kids.

Edited by Quarryman (10/02/07 05:11 PM)

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7478721 -

I wasn't a fuck up in school though. I did really well actually even though I never put forth much effort. I was a terrible slacker and wasted my potential but still I finished an entire year early. I represented my high school at the state level in science fair twice and was just shy of winning a place at nationals the second, etc.

The ease that I learned to approach my education with in grade school has not served me well in college though. It has been work for me to learn proper study habits since the atmosphere I am in now no longer tolerates minimal effort.


--------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

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