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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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my plan for revolution. pt 1.
#7476826 - 10/02/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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since there have been a couple of threads about revolution here lately i thought i'd share my plan. this plan is built for realism and i think it has a fairly good chance of working, its just a long term plan that requires a couple generations before it comes into full effect (and by then we'll all be cyborg hive mind people so i guess its a pointless plan).
the crux of my plan is i believe that we could advance faster if (or if you look at it the other way; that the ills of society could be solved by:) the education system was changed.
childhood is when you do almost all of your core learning, rarely do people make it out of the gravity well of their upbringing. if things are not going well presently, for instance if people do crime, don't care about politics or blindly accept the lies politicians feed them, it is my belief that in large part we can blame the people who raised them. kids are raised stupid. Its kind of funny, my grandma and my mother, who are both square, conservative democrat normal people, both believe the government is actually trying to keep the population dumb by way of the public school system. i don't think there is an actual conspiracy to not teach kids the things they need to know, i think its just that we're still waiting for the next big advance in education... i think as a science the proper methods for educating people has been neglected.
take note: many of the things i mention here are slowly being realized and implemented in half-assed fashion, i do not believe its being done fast enough. most of this stuff is common sense.
okay so what do i want to change here...
HEALTH:
health: we're not living up to our potential health wise. many people suffer from the effects of poor diet, not enough sleep, not enough exercise, not enough flexibility, too much of the wrong KIND of exercise (for instance football is good exercise, but i lifetime of football will fuck your body up hardcore (although i'm not saying people should stop playing football)) people still get addicted to cigarettes, abuse alcohol, abuse drugs, ect.
the most blatantly wrong thing about our education system i think is that we don't teach kids how to be healthy. health class is like once a month movie time (or once a year in many of the schools i went to). gym is kind of pointless joke, with no understanding of the importance of it or expression of the subtle details of physical fitness. school lunches were crap. we force young children to sit still and do busy work 6 hours a day, this is complete insanity. do you ever watch kids and see how much energy they have? i find it hard to pay attention to boring crap and i have maybe a third the energy i did when i was little. i believe that not having kids actively using their bodies while at school warps their psyche, and leads to reduced energy and motivation as an adult (basically if you're told to sit quietly and do what people tell you while you're young for that long of course you're either going to rebel or become a drone) so in this first section we need to a) feed kids healthy food, and teach them how to eat healthy b) teach them how to use their bodies and teach them the importance of keeping it in good working order
seems simple enough, and this should be the first priority of school. not math, science, or even reading. i think the world would be a better place if it was full have healthy manual laborers who can't read than full of unhealthy mildly educated people.
i realize that people have the right to different lifestyle choices but a persons health has a huge effect on this next section (negative effects things negatively, positive effects things positively)
EMOTIONS:
in the schools i went to emotional education was limited to weary commands and platitudes: "don't fight", "you have to share", "play nice", "be a good boy" and that sort of thing. this is fucking ridiculous. yelling at kids when they act out is not teaching them how to find an emotionally balanced happiness. kids need to be taught how to recognize what they're feeling, why they're feeling it, and how to adjust their feelings so they can come into harmony with the world around them. i'm imaging a world in which most people are friendly even with strangers, random fights and aggressive behavior is reduced to almost zero (alpha males will find other, more productive, battlegrounds to assert their dominance on), everybody is chill. there is no reason why this couldn't happen. (note: i'm not saying we're going brainwash kids into being passive, in fact i think people are TOO passive and i'm hoping that there will actually be MORE competition because very passionate people will be less likely to get out of control (more likely to channel their feelings into something productive, MMA instead of just random street fighting for example) and people who are passive now out of fear or emotional sensitivity will be given the skills to express themselves) children need to know that their feelings ARE important, because feelings either covertly or overtly drive ALL behavior, and even more importantly they need to know that other people's feelings are also important, and be given the skills to get along with anyone they meet. and lastly you think better, learn better and work better when you're calm and centered.
MIND:
i think there also needs to be some change in what ideas we teach kids at what time. i think that except for reading, writing and basic math, much of the current curriculum can be de-emphasized and put off till much later in person's education. up until middle school at least the emphasis should be put on abstract concepts, and not the useless facts (which the kids aren't even capable of getting meaning out of because they've never been taught how to critically process information). this is the area i'm most fuzzy on, and the only thing i'm sure of is whats lacking currently, not so much what needs to be taught. i'm sure that kids are not taught to see trends in information, to learn how to judge the reliability of a source of information, how to think logically, ect ect ect.
the only thing i'm sure needs to be taught as far is concepts goes, it people need to be made to understand while they're young that working WITH other people in a pro-active way makes life better for THEM. i forget the term for this, i think its enlightened self interest. if are nice to the kid with the toy, he'll let you play with it, if you're nice to the kid with no toys maybe he'll invite you to go swimming with him or show you were the cool beetles are at or something. its always in your best interest to get along with people and help them when possible, because other people can be vital in helping you get things you want or bettering your life in ways you never imagined. facts and techniques for doing things seem to be pretty reasonably easy to learn while you're older, i don't think they should be pointlessly thrust at people so young. i think middle school is about when they should start teaching some basics, then high school is where you should start teachings kids specifics. middle school should have more classes like advanced cooking, repairing things, building electronics, making things, ect. middle school should have much more emphasis on doing real life things. high school is when people should start learning facts and theories behind the things they've learned they're interested in middle school. and although there should still be general education stuff (math, history, ect) during high school each kid should be able to choose an area of focus that lets say makes up half their day. by the time kids get to college they should have the equivalent of a couple years of college in whatever field they're interested in by the current system.
okay, so basically i think this holistic education will make people happier and smarter. less likely to do or put up with stupid bullshit, and more likely to have the ideas and the energy to fix stupid bullshit. TA DA, it only took 40-80 years but the revolution is complete, a society full of healthy, clear thinking people is going to make very different decisions (and elect very different officials!!!) than our current one.
the only way we're going to learn what type of schooling produces the above finished project is by starting to experiment with different programs and methods, and then analyzing the data.
so how do we get people to buy into this idea? and how do we get the government to give it the O.K. and the funding? that will be covered in pt2.
(i'm pretty tired as you might be able to tell. if something is not clear feel free to ask questions and i'll have more coherent answers at another time).
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7476850 - 10/02/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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all of my idea's are based on:
http://www.timecube.com/
Cubeless education - is a deadly evil. Cubeless educators are evil bastards. Humans are dumb, educated stupid, and evil. They don't want to know Nature's Cubic Order of Creation.
(just kidding, but i think guy sees what i mean somewhat)
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
Edited by truekimbo2 (10/02/07 10:12 AM)
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7476859 - 10/02/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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childhood is when you do almost all of your core learning, rarely do people make it out of the gravity well of their upbringing.
That really is key, and I don't think enough people get it. Just look at the many cases of feral children to see how vital our early life is. The first five years of life are the most important, with each year decreasing in importance after.
Now that you know, the revolution depends on you and what you do. Take this information and make a change in your life. Raise you children, should you have any, the right way - to be critical thinkers. Home school them, if needed (I plan on it).
Lead by example, it's the best method for change in a bovine society
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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herfenara
cross dressinghobo junkie


Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 122
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7476913 - 10/02/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i don't think there is an actual conspiracy to not teach kids the things they need to know, i think its just that we're still waiting for the next big advance in education... i think as a science the proper methods for educating people has been neglected.
have you heard of project renaissance? theyre the main ppl developing the science of learning. for 30 years theyve been trying to get their methods into schools and gotten nowhere. whenever it looks like theyve got a shot, its all mysteriously rejected at the last minute by some unknown ppl higher up the chain.. everyone grab their tinfoil
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7476916 - 10/02/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Most of your "revolution" will occur at home, and via the family. Arguably, what people learn outside of school affects them more than what goes on in the classroom.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7476937 - 10/02/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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true, my idea is closer to systematized mandatory good parenting than education though if you want to look at it like that.
i'm relying on the hope that if we have a good school system, shitty parents won't be able to fuck it up.
i think that biological parents have been given long enough to raise a generation of utopian people.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7476989 - 10/02/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Arguably, what people learn outside of school affects them more than what goes on in the classroom.
That may be true of the current school system, but it does not have to be true of every school system.
The current system sucks, plain and simple. I would not know a percent of what I know today if I had not learned very early how to learn on my own. Learned how to understand things. Schools don't teach that, they teach rote-memorization. I can say that what I learned in school pales in comparison to what I learned on my own.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477022 - 10/02/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
truekimbo2 said: the most blatantly wrong thing about our education system i think is that we don't teach kids how to be healthy. health class is like once a month movie time (or once a year in many of the schools i went to). gym is kind of pointless joke, with no understanding of the importance of it or expression of the subtle details of physical fitness.
At my public high school we had a health class for half the week and a gym class for the other half. We were constantly doing shit related to physical health.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: school lunches were crap.
I can agree with you there. The food was disgusting and of low-quality.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: i believe that not having kids actively using their bodies while at school warps their psyche, and leads to reduced energy and motivation as an adult (basically if you're told to sit quietly and do what people tell you while you're young for that long of course you're either going to rebel or become a drone)
We had a badass recess everyday at my elementary school.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: seems simple enough, and this should be the first priority of school. not math, science, or even reading.
While health is an important aspect of life and many schools do touch on it (as mine did) I do believe that the schools should focus on math, science, and reading. And it's not a school's place to tell parents what to put in their kids bodies and how to exercise. If a parent buys their kid garbage food and doesn't make them move...then that's the parent's fault.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: yelling at kids when they act out is not teaching them how to find an emotionally balanced happiness. kids need to be taught how to recognize what they're feeling, why they're feeling it, and how to adjust their feelings so they can come into harmony with the world around them.
Leave emotions to the individual. School has no place trying to delve into such matters.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: i'm imaging a world in which most people are friendly even with strangers, random fights and aggressive behavior is reduced to almost zero (alpha males will find other, more productive, battlegrounds to assert their dominance on), everybody is chill.
Ain't gonna happen. Our species is inherently aggressive, selfish, and violent at times. That isn't going to change no matter how many feel-good ideas or policies are implemented.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: (more likely to channel their feelings into something productive, MMA instead of just random street fighting for example) and people who are passive now out of fear or emotional sensitivity will be given the skills to express themselves)
Random street fighting is rare. People usually engage in violence because of anger (someone pissed them off) or greed (they want to take someone's shit).
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: the only thing i'm sure needs to be taught as far is concepts goes, it people need to be made to understand while they're young that working WITH other people in a pro-active way makes life better for THEM.
Oh man..I'd love to see you try to teach a class of seven year olds. Kids AREN'T enlightened and they oftentimes can't see reason. They are little balls of ID running around. All of this feel-good shit won't make a difference to kids. Only punishment and reward seems to work with kids.
I think the problem with the public educational system is the greedy teachers and administrators who keep wanting more money, the large amount of students who don't give a fuck, and the parents who are too damn busy to raise their kids.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7477033 - 10/02/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: The current system sucks, plain and simple. I would not know a percent of what I know today if I had not learned very early how to learn on my own. Learned how to understand things. Schools don't teach that, they teach rote-memorization. I can say that what I learned in school pales in comparison to what I learned on my own.
In America, public education is not as bad as people say it is in my opinion. There are opportunities and you can learn if you take advantage of it. But, of course things aren't perfect. If I ever reproduce (God forbid!) I'm sending my kid to a private school.
The reason that I didn't learn much in school was because I didn't give a shit. I was too busy raising hell, mouthing off, and smoking pot. That wasn't my school's fault...it was my fault.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477050 - 10/02/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It was a combination of family, school, and the area in which you grew up "at fault" (if there is any) here 
With the proper education and upbringing for an early age, you would not have been too busy raising hell, mouthing off, and smoking pot.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7477058 - 10/02/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: With the proper education and upbringing for an early age, you would not have been too busy raising hell, mouthing off, and smoking pot.
I dunno man. I grew up in a stable rural area where there was no crime. I had loving parents who made sure I was taken care of. I got straight A's all through elementary school and was the best student in the class. yadda yadda yadda. Then I just stopped giving a fuck and I decided that I would rather smoke weed and look at girls.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477076 - 10/02/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you got straight A's in a school system that only a few posts ago I said sucked. That's supposed to impress me how...? 
It does show me that you managed to develop those skills of self-learning that I hold in such high regard (as did a sizable portion of shroomerites). I would hazard a guess that your loss of interest in school fell along side your realization, even if only subconscious, that it (school) was all a sham.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477077 - 10/02/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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randal: so would you say that as a result of your health and gym classes, most of the kids in your school graduated healthy?
i can see how opinion-wise we could differ on whether or not its the school's place to teach emotions or enforce a healthy lifestyle. i would say if you want to make the world a better place with happier individuals this would be a way to do it.
as for 7 year olds (or younger, or older) not understanding reason and not responding to things other than reward or punishment, i believe you are wrong.
i've explained many advanced concepts on interpersonal relationships to kids, and although they obviously don't understand it or immediately act on it, the gears were turning, and they didn't just look at me glazed over expressions or endless repeating of "why". also, i know personally know of two families that as policy try and treat their kids as if they were very intelligent, and according to them the kids can learn and act on adult concepts at a young age as long as its consistent. (i don't know the kids that well).
i didn't include it in OP, but i meant to include a line about: if you treat kids as though they were dumb and don't challenge them, of course they're going to remain dumb. yeah they're not going to pick up on things instantly, but would you rather it takes kids 5 years while they're young, or their whole life up until their twenties or even thirties (or later) to learn the subtleties of the philosophical meaning behind their actions.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7477089 - 10/02/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: So you got straight A's in a school system that only a few posts ago I said sucked. That's supposed to impress me how...? 
Well, I got straight A's when I was a little kid. When I hit my teenage years my grades went downhill.
Quote:
trendal said: I would hazard a guess that your loss of interest in school fell along side your realization, even if only subconscious, that it (school) was all a sham.
I think it all comes down to me being lazy and distracted. There were tons of classes and teachers that I could have taken advantage of to learn all kinds of things. I just didn't. I was too busy thinking about the girl with the nice boobs sitting in front of me and how I couldn't wait to get home and rip out my bong and watch TV.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477112 - 10/02/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
truekimbo2 said: randal: so would you say that as a result of your health and gym classes, most of the kids in your school graduated healthy?
We had a few fatties here and there but most of the students were skinny and healthy.
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: i can see how opinion-wise we could differ on whether or not its the school's place to teach emotions or enforce a healthy lifestyle. i would say if you want to make the world a better place with happier individuals this would be a way to do it.
Sounds like some unrealistic new age bullshit to me. 
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: i've explained many advanced concepts on interpersonal relationships to kids, and although they obviously don't understand it or immediately act on it, the gears were turning
You know what kept me in line? Knowing that my dad would beat my ass if I did something wrong. Hence, I stopped doing wrong stuff or I got better at hiding it. 
Quote:
truekimbo2 said: yeah they're not going to pick up on things instantly, but would you rather it takes kids 5 years while they're young, or their whole life up until their twenties or even thirties (or later) to learn the subtleties of the philosophical meaning behind their actions.
I say let people find their own way in the world when it comes to philosophical or emotional stuff. These are profound and intimately personal choices that are best left to individuals.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477132 - 10/02/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:[/b}
I think it all comes down to me being lazy and distracted. There were tons of classes and teachers that I could have taken advantage of to learn all kinds of things. I just didn't.
And this is the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Few kids WANT to go to school. Neither did I when i was a kid. However, my parents always instilled in me the notion that education was very important. When I look back, it's what motivated me to do well in school.
Even with its shortcomings, opportunities abound in the current system, they just need to be taken advantage of.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7477151 - 10/02/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: And this is the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Few kids WANT to go to school. Neither did I when i was a kid.
Yep, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the teachers, how many state of the art things you have at your local public high school, or what newfangled educational philosophy that you try to enforce. If the kids don't want to learn then they won't learn.
If you were to stick me back in high school I'd still do the same shit (except smoke weed because I quit years ago). I'd sleep, goof off, and try to fuck girls.
They should invite me back to speak at a pep rally or something!
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7477173 - 10/02/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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But, with all of this being said, I do think that public education could use some tweaking. It would be nice if there were more hands-on and real world kind of stuff. Sitting at a desk and learning about sentence structure all day is damn boring.
Public education needs to get sexier.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477211 - 10/02/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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no, the crux of the problem is our school system could be better. if people don't want to go to school, they still have to because its the law.
wait wait wait randal so lets back up a minute.
do you agree with me that if there are social problems today, we can in part blame the upbringing of the generation that was most instrumental in creating the society we have today? that unbringing is k3y (because most people don't transcend their past)?
and if you do agree with that, would you also agree that we can't force parents to instill good principles in children?
all i'm saying is we need to experiment. your main counterpoints seem to be a) its not our place to enforce "morality" b) outside of enforcing morality our school system works fine now.
to point A: if we can't make parents teach kids to be good people and make smart decisions, and if the present is in large part dependant on the upbringing of the past... then of course things are going to go slow. i personally don't see anything wrong in attempting to accelerating it. if it doesn't work it won't be at a heavy cost and it won't make things worse.
to point b: i believe you are scientifically wrong, for those who do want to be there and do want to learn, there are better teaching methods. i should add that i don't have data to support this but i'd be willing to wager that such data exsists.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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DNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477255 - 10/02/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
truekimbo2 said: if it doesn't work it won't be at a heavy cost and it won't make things worse.
Since when did forcing a subjective set of beliefs about what is "right" and "wrong" not cause problems or make things worse?
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
#7477301 - 10/02/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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when people decided that torture was wrong. when people decided that slavery was wrong. when people decided you didn't have to do whatever the pope said when people decided you should have the freedom to say what you like when people decided you should get a say in the political system.
need i go on?
these subjective beliefs were not always around. although i'm sure they caused problems, they seem to work much better than the previous systems.
edit: my logic is irrefutable! my theories are undeniable! i channel the mind of god, in mental combat i defeat all challengers!!!
edit edit: sorry, but its very satisfying to have an such a powerful answer to what i'm guessing was a rhetorical question.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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MrKite1
Cosmo

Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 1,384
Loc: AK
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: trendal]
#7477333 - 10/02/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.
I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.
For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.
I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.
In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.
-------------------- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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DNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477341 - 10/02/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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truekimbo2 said: when people decided that torture was wrong.
So that solved it then. All those terror suspects being tortured should feel better knowing whatever is being done to them is "wrong". The Bush Administration sure thinks it's "right" and will continue its practice.
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when people decided that slavery was wrong.
So the American Civil War must have just been cake and pie, eh? I may be mistaken but didn't over 200,000 men die because someone decided slavery was wrong and pissed off those who thought it was right?
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when people decided you didn't have to do whatever the pope said
Yet they still persecute gays and lesbians for choosing an alternative lifestyle based on a differing opinion of what is right and what is wrong.
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when people decided you should have the freedom to say what you like
I'm sorry. I thought we were arguing morality, not natural rights.
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when people decided you should get a say in the political system.
I do not consider this having anything to do with morality.
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jewunit
Brutal!

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 34,264
Loc: Ohio
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
#7477374 - 10/02/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not to mention the last two still cause problems (extremist religions and governments.)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
#7477388 - 10/02/07 12:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Children should be taught basic, objective skills such as reading writing and arithmetic. These are skills which are the most broadly applicable to "every day" life.
Right now, children are already aware of "health". Ask any kid in school: "Is smoking bad?", "is eating at McDonald's bad?" and they will respons "yes". Kids know this stuff, but getting them to actually implement their beliefs is another matter.
The best way to improve the educational system is to engage the kids to a greater degree. Make kids WANT to learn.
"Make school sexier".
If this doesn't work, offer more incentives. Telling a 14 year old kid to "do well in school" because when your old it'll be worth it" doesn't click. Offering a kid something tangible for perfect attendance at the end of the week gives them much more to work for.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7477422 - 10/02/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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natural rights could fall under the category of philosophy, which i feel should be taught to children from a young age in conjunction with morality.
political rights would also fall under morality i believe, since the prevailing thought for a long time was that the leaders (kings and priests) were divinely chosen to rule by god (and variations of this) and that the masses were lower people. that is how i meant it.
also, slavery was one cause among many for the civil war.
that being said, and in response to the rest of what you said,
so you would argue that those advancements were not worth it because they have not been implemented perfectly or without cost? i don't quite understand, because yeah people are still tortured occasionally (in this country), but back in the day it was like an entertainment event to watch people get ripped apart by horses....
i don't get why you disagree with me, since i'm saying we should teach (not just tell) kids why being peaceful and not harming others is a good policy.
edit: badchad, i would say that what is good to eat and what is bad to eat, and how to get along with others is much more broadly applicable than reading writing or arithmatic... which is why its strange to me that we don't teach it.
also, yeah kids know that mcdonalds is bad because that what people tell them. they're just parroting. they don't know why, or how to see the reasons for themselves. if you notice i definitely agree school should be more sensual (connected to the senses).
i don't get it, are you guys trying to say that it wouldn't work, or that it would work but its wrong to attempt to teach different things, or that it wouldn't work and its wrong.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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jewunit
Brutal!

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 34,264
Loc: Ohio
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477436 - 10/02/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I believe he's saying you assume there won't be a heavy cost. Just because the outcome may be better (it is subjective) doesn't mean there won't be strife in the shift.
-------------------- !
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: jewunit]
#7477451 - 10/02/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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it would be wonderful if that kind of strife could result from changing the school system. it would mean that eyes got opened and change was on the way.
(similar to the way the education revolution in the 40's and 50's spawned the civil rights movement in the 60's and 70's)
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477475 - 10/02/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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As taught in a formal "philosophy" class, I don't think children in high school and middle have the life-experience, or maturity to benefit from such subjects.
Kids get an adequate overview of what to eat in the food guide pyramid. What do you mean by "they don't know why". Are you suggesting we teach them advanced biochemistry so they understand fat metabolism and cellular changes underlying heart disease? In school I remember learning about heart disease, atherosclerosis and obesity. How much more do they need to know, to fully understand "why Mcdonald's is bad"?
I don't disagree with the touchy feely, "be nice to everyone" component of your "curriculum" but there is a lot of that going on already. When I was in high school, dodge ball was banned since it was too "rough", and partial dress codes enforced.
You'd also have to imagine how you would teach things, and how they would be assessed. If you've ever done it, there is much more to teaching than just thinking up the endpoint (a society of really nice people).
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: MrKite1]
#7477492 - 10/02/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MrKite1 said: Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.
I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.
For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.
I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.
In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.
I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in or didn't like school and they try to spin the whole thing into "it was too easy blah blah" when in reality they were just a fuckup in school. I was a fuckup in school...but I admit it.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: badchad]
#7477499 - 10/02/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: When I was in high school, dodge ball was banned since it was too "rough", and partial dress codes enforced.
haha God...THIS is the real problem with education nowadays. It is being dumbed down and pussified so that nobody feels like the "loser" or "left out". It's effeminite and disgusting. By the way, we had badass dodgeball tournaments in gym class where we wailed on each other with those balls.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477510 - 10/02/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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truekimbo2 said: do you agree with me that if there are social problems today, we can in part blame the upbringing of the generation that was most instrumental in creating the society we have today?
Give me some examples.
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truekimbo2 said: and if you do agree with that, would you also agree that we can't force parents to instill good principles in children?
So the state should do it? No thanks...let parents raise their own kids. The government needs to stay the fuck out of my life.
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truekimbo2 said: all i'm saying is we need to experiment.
Well, so far I disagree with pretty much all of your assertions and suggestions and I would not want my kid exposed to such stuff in school.
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circularvortex
Bass Head




Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 12,148
Loc:
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: DNKYD]
#7477559 - 10/02/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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While some of these are good ideas and could definitely show an impact, it all comes down to the parents. If a kid has shitty parents, generally it will fuck something up for the kid. While I think some changes in schooling could help alleviate some of these problems, parents will still have more influence than schools.
On the whole health note...I took a health class in High School. It was a joke. If there is to be more health type programs implemented they should be done early in a kids schooling, like kindergarten and first grade. By the time kids get into high school they already have well ingrained ideas on what they like to eat. There were plenty of fat kids at my high school. If we get these kids early and get it put in their brain that it's a good thing to live a healthy lifestyle maybe obesity wouldn't be such a problem for America.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction. For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool By making his world a little colder. Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.
 
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477584 - 10/02/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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do you agree with me that if there are social problems today, we can in part blame the upbringing of the generation that was most instrumental in creating the society we have today?
so you're undecided on the truth of this claim? i don't really have evidence for it at the moment, i can search around and get back to you on it if you like.
like i said, my plan pretty much hinges on that assumption.
you do agree that we can't force people how to parent their kids though.
do you guys even think we need a revolution?
also, you guys are just picking at little pieces, i wish you would stop that. nothing is written in stone, i don't have a PHD in educational science, if you want specifics those are the ones i personally suggest that everyone turns to.
also on a side note, you guys seem to be proving my prejudice against the current education system. you seem to be assume i want teachers to teach morality and philosophy by telling the kids what to think and making sure the kids believe it: that very style of thinking is whats wrong with the education system.
the whole point is to give the kids the tools to think for themselves at an early age.
if kids want to argue they should be free too, and hopefully the teachers would help them forumulate their arguements.
BTW: the food pyramid is enough? to kids these days even understand difference between the nutritional content of whole wheat bread vs white bread? not to mention several nutrition scientists argue that the food pyramid is wrong, and i think most would agree that its a gross generalization that shouldn't be followed exactly.
you asked what kids don't know about eating healthy, doesn't it worry you that you think the food pyramid should be able to teach kids what to eat? although i guess you weren't taught nutrition in school, so unless you developed an outside interest that process you do every day that keeps you alive you wouldn't know much about it...
i don't know, i'm kind of getting tired of responding. unless other people comment (or someone makes a really good post) i'm going to wait till pt2 to continue responding.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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circularvortex
Bass Head




Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 12,148
Loc:
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477598 - 10/02/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
MrKite1 said: Education is intrinsic to the success and continued health of any society. Our education system certainly leaves a lot to be desired and the negative effects of poor education abound.
I know I began to realize how useless our education system was at a very young age. It was gradual, certainly nothing sudden I merely began pursuing my own interests and reading a lot sometime in the 3rd grade.
For years I never put forth any effort in school and excelled just the same so eventually I stopped caring. My disillusionment with the public education system reached its peak when I was expelled from high school under a no tolerance policy for having a single use packet of Sudafed on my person.
I was removed from the general school population and sent to the alternative school set aside for children who were expelled or considered behaviorally unfit. As part of a deal I brokered to shorten my stay at this school I had to install and head a peer counseling program. Talking to those students and attending that school was an eye opening experience.
In retrospect it is really bizarre what a microcosm of general American society the public education system is.
I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in or didn't like school and they try to spin the whole thing into "it was too easy blah blah" when in reality they were just a fuckup in school. I was a fuckup in school...but I admit it.
Well I'm sorry you were a fuckup in school. That is not the case for everyone, however.
I don't buy stories like this. Usually people say stuff like this because they didn't do well in school or think they are fuckups, and it makes them feel better to think OTHER people are just "fuckups" too.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction. For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool By making his world a little colder. Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.
 
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Quote:
circularvortex said: Well I'm sorry you were a fuckup in school.
Hey, don't worry about it. I actually take some amount of pride in it.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: truekimbo2]
#7477627 - 10/02/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm having a difficult time trying to follow what you're saying and striving for. If you feel like it, could you present a more coherent and cogent argument on what is wrong with our society and why the educational system has anything to do with it?
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7477651 - 10/02/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your educational plan calls for deeper, analytical, and philosophical thinking. This is a good theory. Unfortunately, children simply don't have that ability. They aren't developed enough and are too immature.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Quarryman
Stranger


Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 806
Loc: Tennessee
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7478142 - 10/02/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think truekimbo is giving kids too much credit; if no pressure is ever put on a kid, he will almost certainly act selfishly and have little desire in education. But Randal, you don't give kids enough credit. Threats aren't the only or the best way to work with kids.
Edited by Quarryman (10/02/07 05:11 PM)
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MrKite1
Cosmo

Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 1,384
Loc: AK
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7478721 - 10/02/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wasn't a fuck up in school though. I did really well actually even though I never put forth much effort. I was a terrible slacker and wasted my potential but still I finished an entire year early. I represented my high school at the state level in science fair twice and was just shy of winning a place at nationals the second, etc.
The ease that I learned to approach my education with in grade school has not served me well in college though. It has been work for me to learn proper study habits since the atmosphere I am in now no longer tolerates minimal effort.
-------------------- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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SapphireCat
Seeker



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Ireland
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: my plan for revolution. pt 1. [Re: MrKite1]
#7478729 - 10/02/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: As taught in a formal "philosophy" class, I don't think children in high school and middle have the life-experience, or maturity to benefit from such subjects.
Personally I would have loved a philosophy class in high school, and my grades started dropping when I started to become more interested in trying to figure out myself and the world around me rather than the monotonous regurgitating of information, set aside to be learned.
Life experience and maturity: ok i was probably one of few who was forced to grow up early. but if someone stealing your favourite toy, causes you to cry and carries the same emotional attachment that a more mature person would have with a person who had just died, both children can learn the same lessons from it. Children just have to learn to apply things into their lives.
Critical thinking should be promoted alot more than it is at the moment as well. You'd think you'd learn it in maths, but very often when i was in class i was given a simple "you just do" Ever since maths was taught to me in the "just do" attitude my grades dropped.
As for the more friendly approach to small kids and stuff and alot of the recommendations: is there no such thing as motessori(sp?) schools in America? These generally are only available for small children and i only know of one that is at high school level. The reasoning in a book i read about that school (summerset school or somethng i believe it was called)
-------------------- Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato
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