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When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light?
    #7439963 -

Stoned thought here :smirk:

The speed of light inside a star is very slow, due to photons interacting with the ionized matter.

So when a star explodes, doesn't the shockwave (which takes only minutes to reach the surface?) move at a speed greater than the local speed of light?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7440002 -

Interesting thought.

I bet the shockwave leaves the matter behind it with a different refractive index.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7440065 -

If you were inside a star, and it exploded, you would see the shock wave starting at you and progressing outwards at the speed of light (inside the star).

You wouldn't see the real shock wave at all, because it travels faster than c (local). The light from the matter disturbed by the wave would reach you from the matter closest to you first, and then from the matter farther away (which might have been hit before you were).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7440439 -

How slow would photons move in a star?


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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: Asante]
    #7440595 -

Well the photons themselves move at c (in a vacuum) in the area between matter particles...but that space is so small that the photons are constantly interacting - thus slowing down their overall progress.

I think the figure I heard was that it takes thousands of years for a photon that was originally emitted in the core to reach the surface.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7441334 -

i know nothing of physic's n all but.

light is generated by burning of gas right?

and a explosion is alot of gas?

so a shockwave is a greater form of light?

even thow i must be completely wrong, maybe it will spark an idea


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7441341 -

The shock wave can't be made of light, because it travels faster than light.

Excessive amounts of light are produced by the shock wave, but the wave itself is made of matter.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7441350 -

ok so in atoms, doesn't matter travel faster than light?

so maybe during this explosoin, this matter is released from atoms for a brief time, allowed to free travel, until they catch a atom to bond with?


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7441384 -

No, I don't think so.

The matter would all be ionized, and the atoms present would be changing rapidly due to the energies present.

I don't think the wave travels faster than c in a vacuum, supernova events are on the order of a 100 seconds.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7441494 -

Hmmm, I think the flaw in the thinking here is the idea that light travels slower inside a star.  Although it is true that a photon born at the center of a star can take millenia to reach the surface and escape the star, my understanding is that this is due to the erratic course taken by said photon.  In otherwords, the photon is still travelling at the "normal" speed for light, but its interaction with other particles causes a zig-zag path that may be a thousand light years long before its exit from the star.  When a star explodes the shock wave does not exceed the speed of those photons, it just takes a direct path outward sweeping up everything in its path (including the photons).

This leads to a thought of my own on the subject to ponder.  The star has all these photons in it bouncing around at any given point which have not yet found an exit (maybe a thousand years worth).  So isn't it possible that when a star explodes the bright flash of light is not exactly created by the explosion, but instead it is just the result of all those 'trapped' photons being released at one time?

Then again, I have never taken a physics course in my life and maybe I'm completely wrong here. :shrug:


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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7442317 -

ToTheSummit said:
Although it is true that a photon born at the center of a star can take millenia to reach the surface and escape the star, my understanding is that this is due to the erratic course taken by said photon.  In otherwords, the photon is still travelling at the "normal" speed for light, but its interaction with other particles causes a zig-zag path that may be a thousand light years long before its exit from the star.  When a star explodes the shock wave does not exceed the speed of those photons, it just takes a direct path outward sweeping up everything in its path (including the photons).


Awww DAMN, you beat me to it....!    :tongue:
That was on the most recent episode of "The Universe" - "Secrets of the Sun" on the Discovery or Science channel....      :thumbup:


>^;;^<


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>^;;^<

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7444019 -

Quote:
Although it is true that a photon born at the center of a star can take millenia to reach the surface and escape the star, my understanding is that this is due to the erratic course taken by said photon.


THEIF :mad:


I was gonna post that :grin:


--------------------
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personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: Asante]
    #7444337 -

maybe the protons are actually mating inside a star and this is why it takes them so long to reach the surface(this is where all life comes from?) then it explodes(gives birth) and spreads its love across the universe


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7777911 -

This keeps coming back to tug at my mind...

True, the photons still move at c, but they encounter another particle almost immediately, hence the slowness of their overall progress.

However, that still doesn't answer my original thought: what happens when a shock wave moves at a faster speed than light (note progression of light != c)?

I've just tried emailing a couple astrophysicists that work at my local University...we'll see what they have to say.

Because I think there's something there...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7778012 -

How can a shock wave go faster than light?

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7778051 -

How can a shock wave go faster than light?

Faster than the local speed of light...not faster than light in a vacuum.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7778131 -

Hmmm, do you know if this does in fact happen? I have no idea.

I re-read my first reply. I think what I was getting at is that the local speed of light is different before, after and in the shockwave. But that doesnt really answer the question. What would happen if the shockwave went faster than light? I cant think of anything that would be crazy. You have heard of Cerenkov radiation? Maybe something like that? But thats not quite the same situation...

In between the atoms in the plasma, light would travel at its normal speed c of course. But when it hit a particle, say just before the shockwave, and goes along for the ride. Now the particle is moving fast enough to compensate for the time it takes for the light to be re-emitted. The result is an increase in local speed of light, right on the shockwave. I would guess that you would have the light traveling the slowest right before the shockwave. Then it would either slow down or speed up right on the shockwave, depending on how fast the shockwave is. Then in the low density behind the shockwave, it would have the highest local speed.

heh, thats my stoned guess.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7778139 -

A stoned guess for a stoned question :wink:

I have no idea if that does, in fact, happen...other than my own thought experiment.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: trendal]
    #7778190 -

I wonder if the shockwaves pressure and speed are related, or fairly independent of each other.

If the pressure is high, then the density is high and the speed of light would be much slower. If the pressure is low, then the density would not be as high, and the speed of light would be only slightly slower.

If the speed is high, then the distance traveled by the particle might over compensate for the slowness from the pressure. In other words the shockwaves speed carries it faster than its slowing from the density. If the speed is low, then the distance the particle travels might not compensate for the slowness from the density.

I think its clear that the refractive index would be higher before the shockwave than after it. Inside the shockwave I bet the refractive index has alot to do with the pressure, and maybe a little to do with speed. Im sure it is quite complex with a few different layers of approximations.


Be sure to update if you get replies from the physicists. Also I often post these kinds of questions at physicsforums.com. Check it out if you havent before.

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Re: When a star explodes, the shockwave moves faster than the local speed of light? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7778949 -

is relativity a constant thing?
is 299,792,458 a constant?

surely if it was going faster than the speed of light its mass would increase so much that it would slow down very dramatically?

m = (m / (1-(v^2/c^2)^(1/2))

and stuff?


--------------------
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