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Constructive vs. Destructive
    #6929370 -

This is a post I've thought about writing for a long time. I've seriously considered putting it in Politics & Law (especially since I hang out there most often) but I'm pretty sure that it ultimately belongs here.

I am curious about what makes people decide to change their world in destructive, instead of constructive, ways.

Consider two people, both of whom are angry about gasoline consumption in the United States.

One of them goes out and founds Tesla Motors (or something similar, for the sake of argument), painstakingly raising venture capital, and pulling together the necessary expertise in order to create a viable car company that builds exclusively electric cars. This person hopes that by creating a viable electric car market, additional innovation will be spurred on. This will bring the prices down and possibly even allow electric cars to outperform gas-powered cars. This person has gone out and created something in order to improve their world.

Then there's the other guy. He thinks that because he's okay riding a bicycle, everyone else should be. So he gathers some facts, puts together a website, and tries to get the government to outlaw cars all together. He is actively trying to destroy jobs along with the hard work and creativity that went into building up the car companies in existence today.

Then my question is, why would you ever be the latter of the two people? Personally he strikes me as evil and selfish. He shows no regard for the work and effort of others (even if we assume some malicious intent on the part of car manufacturers' board of directors, that doesn't mean the engineers, scientists, and designers that work for them really aren't trying hard and putting a lot of themselves into their work). He puts his own personal desire above that of others and tries to shut them down.

Meanwhile, the first individual has created something wonderful. He dreamed a dream and went out to achieve it without pushing anyone else out of the way.

And yet, so few people (it seems like, though I obviously don't have hard numbers on this) choose to be the first type.

Why is this?

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Economist]
    #6929843 -

both types are the same. both playing the side of the "good guy" which is what all of us do in our own minds.

i see one guy putting oil companies and other car companies out of business. the bike dude is putting those same companies out of business and likely improving other's health and the bike industry.

i'll have to side with the tesla motor guy though because he is not using government power and enforcing his view of the world. he's letting others choose their path. the more we try to steer others in our self centered direction, the greater the resistance and thus it is viewed as destructive.



now i know that gas thing was just an example.... as far as what i think motivates constructive versus destructive action is our true nature versus our illusory self. where is the tesla motor guy really coming from? is it still an us versus them mentality? you seem to have already taken sides and those crazy bike dudes can go to hell.

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Economist]
    #6929875 -

i'll also say that yes, i do still enjoy playing the blame game and pointing out other's shortcomings while holding onto my own.

it's a fear that others might not see the illusory image of the world that i've painted in the same way. the truth does not depend on my own campaign. it is self evident to all, and by telling others the world is a cetain way, we get in the way of truth.

truth will come out in all. sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. this is why those that know truth can look at the illusion and smile because they know it will sort itself out.

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Economist]
    #6929890 -

Quote:
And yet, so few people (it seems like, though I obviously don't have hard numbers on this) choose to be the first type.

Why is this?


The problem can be viewed from many perspectives since I truly believe that there are so many determinant factors.
It's about the examples one gets, to be more precise, if one lives around stubborn people he will also have fixed ideas. If one's mind is being programed to see things in limited patterns then that's all he/she will do. Then even if one would be able to see that things don't work the way they are but can't be open minded and creative enough to think about improving, so the solution that comes in hand is prohibiting.

Then there are many people that have tones of psychological issues and most of them are on power trips caused by their own personal drama and other confusions so they feel powerful and have the impression that they're doing the "right thing".
The messianic complex is widely spread, so much more then we can ever notice and I think it also plays a big role in how one chooses to act. Being the "Saviour" seems to be the answer for all the questions in people's minds since it's the only excuse they could come up with for their own misfortunes.

Then the intelligence plays a big role too. People seem to lacking of a clear and organized mind and are driven by unhealthy emotions. And this thought leads me to the education issue. We don't really get the best education out there, our minds are not trained to think and the sheep-like mentality that is being imprinted only makes things worse. People are being discouraged to create their own experience and they're being pushed into living a sedentary life. It is a fact that experience is one of the most valuable teachers.

I think that your question can have it's answer in another question:
Why do some people choose to follow a religious dogma, kill in the name of God and still have the impression that they're adopting a "Saint-like" attitude?
And how come that others choose to question everything and, keep an open mind and increase their awareness. And in extent they will realize that in life there's always room for real improvement, change, understanding...?
You can mark the spot on DNA, on determinism, on awareness, on psychology, history, politics, cultural influence and so much more.
The truth is that all of these factors mix so I can't really give a short and synthesized answer because only by getting into every little detail will help one get a better perspective.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Economist]
    #6930018 -

I find this a very difficult situation to address the difference between creation and destruction because it is a complicated example.

For example if the bike enthusiast sees the use of a bicycle as an act of creation (manpower into movement) and the use of cars and the existance of car companies as destructive (they pollute, rely on gas, etc.) than he may see his actions as being creative. Some might also see the creation of any kind of company, even for electric cars, as being destructive because it re-inforces the system of capitalism.

This question is tied to political issues, and isn't just a personal philosophical one. I think what you are getting at works better for me in terms of deconstructionism vs. reform.

While I agree with you that the Teslo motors company founder has done something positive while this bicycle guy is missing the mark in terms of doing something useful for society, I would not say that the bicycle guy's motivation is destructive. He is looking to remove, or deconstruct, the way society actually works. To take a step back. He sees no possibility for a positive working society as long as cars in any form are around...if he did his behavior would be different. Perhaps reforming cars to be electrical, to him, would just change the nature of the problem, whereas if everyone were on bicycles his ideals would be realized.

It's weird but in a way destructive urges are creative urges. Take the extreme example of Hitler. Couldn't you argue that his attempt to rid the world of non-aryans is a misguided attempt to "create" a perfect society? Aren't Jihadists trying to "create" a world free of infidels?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6931031 -

^^This is a good point; fundamentally, creation and destruction are the same thing anyway.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Grok]
    #6931634 -

creation and construction have separate meanings.

construction and destruction are basically the same in the physical world. both are just us playing with matter.

as far as constructive vs. destructive approaches to interacting with other humans...?

is there a fundamental split to how we approach other humans? either trying to build them up (serving humanity), or knock them down (serving the ego)?


--------------------
TAO

but really, fish noodles

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: EsKregg]
    #6931726 -

Consider the standpoint of bicycle man

there is no perfection outside of nature, and technology is a deep cancer destroying the spirit of humanity

now, isn't it his job, his duty, do everything he can to get back in touch, and save his fellow men that are willing to heed his cause?

Now, is this true? I kind of feel like it is.

Tesla motors, I suppose, would imply simply jut a desire for us to use technology in wholesome and benevolent ways, which is a middle road and an agreeable solution.

I would wager both have good intentions and are being positive (compassionate) in their work (or we can assume they are on ego trips) and both will help to balance society closer to where it "ought" to be in terms of freedom, health (planetary health!) and cleanliness and etc...... pragmatically it will be Tesla motors man who makes the biggest impact, but bicycle hippy is holding a very important set of blueprints in his mind that in fact, if more people held, would strike a great compromise between society and nature, or society and the human spirit (in liberated status).

I don't think bicycle man cares about jobs. I don't care about all the engineers who are working to design bombs, bombs are worse than cars yes, but ...... I don't think what he is doing is "evil" at all and that the mere basis of JOB should be important

then we might argue in favor of the empire's safety.... the empire isn't real. It never has been. Work will go where work is needed, knowledge where knowledge is needed, a fundamental perspective shift does not inherently harm these so called workers, merely displaces them elsewhere... yet there would be no harm to them at all if we did not base survival upon capitalism, rather used our abundant resources to ensure that anyone and everyone shall be fed and clothed and sheltered no matter what their "job" is.

What if all jobs payed the same? Would the engineers make bombs? Maybe they would design toys for children? Would the cars pollute, why should they if gas isn't a monopoly?

See it is just the shifting of stories, the rephrasing of ideas.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: leery11]
    #6931818 -

Quote:
but bicycle hippy is holding a very important set of blueprints in his mind that in fact, if more people held, would strike a great compromise between society and nature, or society and the human spirit (in liberated status).


Theoretically yes.
But read the post again... the bicycle dude from this example will use FORCE. What kind of hippie is that? :shrug:... sounds to me more like a communist. Yes, he might have good intentions but his actions are harmful and mindless.

Quote:
What if all jobs payed the same? Would the engineers make bombs? Maybe they would design toys for children? Would the cars pollute, why should they if gas isn't a monopoly?


Black market profit has always worked :shrug:. Do you think that they would count only on the official income? It's all about power trips again.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Constructive vs. Destructive [Re: Economist]
    #6932462 -

It's an interesting synchronicity for me seeing you post this tonight. Tonight I went to see a speech by one of my personal heros, Paul Hawken. He's an environmentalist who has worked tirelessly with businesses(instead of against them) to help them become more environmentally efficient, while at the same time helping them become more financially efficient. His message is essentially that the two goals are not conflicting, but are in fact completely compatible. Green is profitable. I truly think that the answer lies with reform rather than revolution, and that learning to work within the status quo to change it is much more constructive than simply opposing it.


--------------------

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