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THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited)
    #6582494 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC5t0DfK5NU&mode=related&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6XYJLUXqtc&mode=related&search=


The implications...


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6582555 -

If you have nothing to add to a thread, then don't bother posting, please. -Seuss

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #6584460 -

I have nothing to add besides---thanks for the links. I must say, Gnostism(?) the missing gospels, .......I'm really finding a need within me to find out what they truly said.

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: gregorio]
    #6585027 -

You're welcome. I also have a need to discover what has been denied to me (and to humanity in general) by the great deceivers of humankind. This deception did not prevent the Spirit of Christ, the Logos, from informing me and changing my life, but the 'disconnect' between what was available to me through mainstream Christianity on the one hand, and my own religious experiences on the other hand, have become 'reconnected' through Gnostic Christianity. Moreover, Gnostic Christianity joins hands with other esoteric traditions within other faiths instead of simply being at doctrinal odds with them. Christian imperialism based upon the exclusion of all other faiths has to go. The ONLY sense that Christ is the 'only Way,' lies in the idea that Christ means Logos, and the Logos is The Way, the Truth and the Life. One would think that God only creates or informs 'Christians' or those who merely call themselves Christians but who are denizens of Hell - the haters of humankind.

A 'Knower,' can Know God while Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or Christian (not to mention non-affiliated persons). 'Knowers' [Gnostics] will recognize one another from within their respective traditions, because beneath all the doctrinal ideas, there lies the Reality Itself, which is merely 'clothed' with doctrines. Like clothes, doctrines can be put on or taken off with no effect on the Logos Itself, with one exception - the doctrine of Compassion. Compassion in action is the action of God as Savior - bringing the myth into matter - very Incarnation. If Christ is not born in the heart's of humans, He is not born at all.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6594870 -

Very interesting.

If the Gospel of Judas was eliminated by the orthodox church, it makes me wonder how much other 'heretical' material has been tossed out.

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6595271 -

vigilant_mind said:
Very interesting.

If the Gospel of Judas was eliminated by the orthodox church, it makes me wonder how much other 'heretical' material has been tossed out.


This should give you some idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_Library


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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6595848 -

The whole Nag Hammadi library that was discovered in 1945 and only recently translated in full, was eliminated. There is a letter discovered in a Greek monastery, which has subsequently also disappeared, which was written by the non-heretical Gnostic Christian Clement of Alexandria, which spoke of a second Gospel of Mark. This Gospel had strange initiatory rites regarding nakedness.

There is a whole collection of Christian Apocrypha, and Old Testament Pseudepigrapha which I have collected. The ancient 3 Books of Eoch are alluded to in a couple of Biblical places, and the books still exist, but most people have no idea about the myths of The Watchers (fallen angels who loved and mated with women to produce "giants" - the Nephilim; the origin of magick, cosmetics [womanly enchantment], weaponry, etc.) Fabulous books that blur the mythic with the historical, sort of "middle earth" fashion are available. The Bible, for me, is a starvation diet of bread and water (or, should I say, bread and wine?) handed down by the tyrants who constructed the religion of Christianity - wrested from the hands of the original seekers of the Christ within, while they and their writings were exterminated. The Catholics and the fundamentalist Protestants both stand as guardians of the 2-dimensional facade that has passed for Christianity for two millennia.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6597399 -

I take it Judas would not be the son of perdition, then?

The gospel that made me love Jesus more than any other was the gospel of Thomas. I have recently taken up bible study to help burn away the metaphysical conditioning I have inflicted upon myself with the aid of the Castanada series. I am ignorant of Christianity, but the way the Bible condemns wickedness makes it simultaneously dispairing and appealing to me.

Jesus is very interesting. I find it confusing, people who treat him like a delusional wise sage. Could be me still. *Always gotta put PR disclaimer at hypocrisy points....(they tell me they tell me they tell me)

There aren't much I have, yet the things I have heard you comment of Judas's gospel, Markos, has given me much hope for my own.

I dunno. The bible could be a tyrannical skewing of truth for the ruling class. I remember also believing 9/11 was the American government's fault. Then again, I started thinking recently that mysticism is a perversion of truth, and that mystics are the real global leaders running things behind the curtain.

It doesn't seem like the gospels in the bible get too much into the relationship of Jesus and the disciples. Just superficial gleamings. The gnostic texts look as to make up for that?

Ultimatly, I think I may compulsivly eat too much candy to be able to honestly deal in matters of truth.

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: FatBath]
    #6601851 -

Seems very much like Jesus Christ Superstar, with the more existential and deterministic outlook. I wonder if Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber read any of this.

Thanks for posting, I enjoyed it.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: FatBath]
    #6602827 -

Best knock off the candy then.
The Gospel of Judas is interesting for a number of reasons, but not because it supplies a corrective to actual history. JUdas illustrates that a story-line can have another spin to it. It illustrates a certain importance of astral (in the sense of astrological) phenomena, as representative of certain Gnostic ideas about transcending the 'fate' of our horoscope, so-to-speak. It also illustrates the Gnostic sense of being other than the physical body, which must be sacrificed in Jesus' case in order to release Him from bondage to the material world.

The New Testament might best be prefaced by reading John Shelby Spongs book Liberating the Gospels, rather than reading it on your own or by having individuals unskilled in Biblical hermeneutics give you their interpretations of the writings. It is best to proceed to the Nag Hammadi books after Spong and the NT or real confusion can occur, confusion that can be a setback if one wants to understand Christian writings more deeply. Confusion and frustration often lead to throwing the baby out with the bathwater and dismissing all of it wholesale.

There are a lot of different Jesus' available to choose from. I want to pick the Real Jesus.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6604182 -

The real Jesus is a very subjective term the real Jesus according to Paul the real Jesus according to the gnostic tradition the real Jesus according to Origin or Clement or the historical Jesus the historic Jesus probably is the least appealing the heir to a line of kings forced into a life he had no choice in due to his birth line a man struggling with the weight of occupied land a land split by those that wanted a line of David restored to the throne and by those that supported the Herordion line pulled and torn between the Iscare and Zealot and his own belief that something far beyond this world was at work we see glimpses of his beliefs in Kabbala and Mystery cults and the Zohar all very active beliefs of his times . A man that believed that God would restore his people a man that sized the temple with only a handful of followers in hope of a mass uprising a man that sweat blood in the knowledge that he had failed and that was crucified a fate reserved for those that had committed treason against the Roman empire. The historic Jesus was a Jew with Jewish motives and goals.and when he died his mission fell to James his brother and it is here that enters Paul a Roman with his own views very different from James a hybrid of Zoroaster and Pythagorean thought from here gone is Jesus the man and now the Christ as a ideal is laid out after this point the horror lies the struggle between The end time prophet of Jesus and the more gnostic ideal Jesus and the Jesus king line of David restored Jewish uprising,, with the 70ad uprising crushed a more romanticized Jesus merges from the ruins far removed from the man and the beginning of what the man Jesus taught became to be suppressed.What we now know as Christianity is just the end result of a line of thought far older than Jesus altered and doctored to fit a regime that needed a state religion to solidify its rapidly failing empire.

Edited by Mosby (02/23/07 10:28 PM)

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: Mosby]
    #6604359 -

I agree with some, but not all of your perspectives. Zohar and Kabbalah did not exist in 1st century Judea (despite what the Kabbalah Center propaganda maintains), and of James, one can only speculate (as I think you did re: Pythagoras & Zoroaster), but I do appreciate that you see the predicament of the many forms that Jesus has taken.

Perhaps this is why I choose to backtrack from the Johannine Logos to the source of thought on the Logos (Philo of Alexandria I am willing to wager); and from the Gnostics backwards to Hermes Thrice Great (though legendary), and perhaps, as you allude, to Pythagoras. It may well be that Freke & Gandy, and before them Albert Schweitzer, are correct in seeing the Biblical Jesus as a composite character and not a historical personage at all. I choose to see Him as a human however, even if He IS an abstraction of several sources. Ultimately ALL of this multplicity is illusory compared to The ONE.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/25/07 11:00 AM)

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6607549 -

500 years prior to what is known as the birth of Christ, Lao Tzu, left China for the West to spread his philosophy, The Tao, which is "The Way".

The Bible seems like a perversed version of the Tao to me... at least the one recently used.


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6607705 -

A whole different civilization, different mind set.

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Re: THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS (Revisited) [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6608053 -

Cracka_X said:
500 years prior to what is known as the birth of Christ, Lao Tzu, left China for the West to spread his philosophy, The Tao, which is "The Way".

The Bible seems like a perversed version of the Tao to me... at least the one recently used.


I think a closer examination will reveal recurring themes in every religion, which sometimes occur through influence by other cultures, and in other cases seem to arise spontaneously(the mystical experience is fairly uniform throughout the world). Taoism may have been one of many faiths to influence Christianity. Buddhism had also spread to the West by then, and Zoroastrianism had undoubtedly influenced Judaism long before Jesus was born. Even earlier than that, Judaism had been influenced by their presence in Egypt, and before that by the religions of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and other Middle Eastern cultures.

Don't think that Taoism was born in a void either. It was built upon(and partly in opposition to) Confucianism. Confucius, in turn, was influenced by the culture and religion of his time. No religion is free from outside influences. And there's nothing wrong with that. It is by integrating the wisdom received from others and building upon it that we evolve spiritually.


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