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OfflineYthanA
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Dysgenics
    #5922151 - 08/01/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Demographic studies generally indicate that the more intelligent and better educated women in affluent nations have much lower reproductive rates than the less educated, which has led to concern regarding the future of intelligence in these nations. The most cited work is Vining's 1982 study on the fertility of 2,539 U.S. women aged 25 to 34; the average fertility is correlated at -0.86 in IQ for white women and -0.96 for black women, and indicated a drop in the genotypic average IQ of 1.6 per generation for the white population and 2.4 points per generation for the black population. A 2003 study by Richard Lynn and Marian Van Court (2003) returned similar results, with the genotypic decline measuring at 0.9 IQ points for the total sample and 0.75 IQ points for whites only. (Wikipedia)




I always figured as much but I wasn't aware of the studies which corroborated my suspicion. At this rate, in 13 generations an IQ of 100 will equal "legally retarded" in today's terms. 13 generations is a long time, but in the scope of human history it's nothing. Do you believe this could pose a serious problem? Will eugenics eventually be necessary if we want to combat the decline of human intelligence?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922277 - 08/01/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

At this rate, in 13 generations an IQ of 100 will equal "legally retarded" in today's terms.

Global average IQs are rising at about 3 points per decade, and it's not clear exactly why. It's known as the Flynn Effect and it requires IQ tests to be periodically renormalized.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Diploid]
    #5922310 - 08/01/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There are lots of interesting correlates with population IQs. The Race and Intelligence wikipedia article and some of the others linked from the IQ main page discuss some of them.

I'm looking forward to reading Lynn and Vanhanen's IQ and the Wealth of Nations when I get the time. And possibly Race Differences in Intelligence if the first is any good.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Diploid]
    #5922338 - 08/01/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I learned all about the Flynn Effect in psych 101 but according to the article it topped out in the late 90s and IQs are back down to 1991 levels. I suspect the simplest explanation is the right one - it's mostly due to improved nutrition - and better food can only take us so far. But I hope you're right and it manages to balance out all the stupid people breeding. Here's hoping we see GM crops with patented Neuron Pathway Boosters™. :wink:


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5922342 - 08/01/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

And thanks for the titles ChuangTzu I may dig into those during my upcoming vacation.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922446 - 08/01/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

^







--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922474 - 08/01/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
Quote:

Demographic studies generally indicate that the more intelligent and better educated women in affluent nations have much lower reproductive rates than the less educated, which has led to concern regarding the future of intelligence in these nations. The most cited work is Vining's 1982 study on the fertility of 2,539 U.S. women aged 25 to 34; the average fertility is correlated at -0.86 in IQ for white women and -0.96 for black women, and indicated a drop in the genotypic average IQ of 1.6 per generation for the white population and 2.4 points per generation for the black population. A 2003 study by Richard Lynn and Marian Van Court (2003) returned similar results, with the genotypic decline measuring at 0.9 IQ points for the total sample and 0.75 IQ points for whites only. (Wikipedia)




I always figured as much but I wasn't aware of the studies which corroborated my suspicion. At this rate, in 13 generations an IQ of 100 will equal "legally retarded" in today's terms. 13 generations is a long time, but in the scope of human history it's nothing. Do you believe this could pose a serious problem? Will eugenics eventually be necessary if we want to combat the decline of human intelligence?




Assuming intelligence is 100% genetic...

Assumptions are the mother of all fuckups :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: trendal]
    #5922489 - 08/01/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not assuming intelligence is 100% genetic, maybe it's 10% genetic and is really falling at 20 points per generation. From my impression the study didn't try and link IQ and DNA, it just looked at the end result. It makes intuitive sense to me though, do you dispute that a predisposition for breeding among stupid people could lead to a general dumbing down of the population?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922511 - 08/01/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

do you dispute that a predisposition for breeding among stupid people could lead to a general dumbing down of the population?

Yes, because I don't think that intelligence is 100% genetic. If it isn't 100% genetic, then breeding is not the primary thing affecting intelligence in the general population.

Not being entirely genetic, "stupid" people can have "smart" kids just as easily as the smart people can - it depends more on whether the kid is taught to be intelligent or not.

With that in mind, I would place the majority of the blame on our dreadful education system - it's dreadful enough that even the children of "smart" people can turn out really quite stupid :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: trendal]
    #5922536 - 08/01/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe intelligence is 100% nature either, but I also don't think it's 100% nurture. Assuming any combination of genetics and environmental factors, it would still stand to reason that on average, a stupid person's child will be less intelligent than a smart person's child. If smart people had as many children it wouldn't be a problem, but we don't :wink: and thus my prediction that people will keep getting mor stoopider.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922572 - 08/01/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well you're also assuming that the life expectancy is the same for smart people and stupid people :wink:

Stupid people can get themselves killed easier, perhaps?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: trendal]
    #5922588 - 08/01/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Good point, there's also the whole stupidity = worse job = worse medical care factor. Maybe you're right and the lesson here is smart people don't try and predict the future. :wink:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5922598 - 08/01/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oh I wouldn't say that. Predicting the future is what the human brain does - albeit the immediate future for the most part.

Intelligence itself is, in a large part, the increased ability to predict the future - both immediate future with higher accuracy, and farther into the future.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: trendal]
    #5922619 - 08/01/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I was mostly being facetious, but this particular question might be like trying to predict the weather decades in advance. When it comes to intelligence there's a lot we don't know. Thanks you've actually improved my outlook on humanity. :smile:


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5924923 - 08/02/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Eugenics isn't given much attention because the nazi's were so in to it. After WWII it became kind of a social taboo and everyone started pretending we are all born equal.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Ythan]
    #5924955 - 08/02/06 10:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps God is upset at our lack of faith and he's dumbing us down to the point where believing in something without proof becomes rational.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: trendal]
    #5924985 - 08/02/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Yes, because I don't think that intelligence is 100% genetic. If it isn't 100% genetic, then breeding is not the primary thing affecting intelligence in the general population.

Not being entirely genetic, "stupid" people can have "smart" kids just as easily as the smart people can - it depends more on whether the kid is taught to be intelligent or not.

With that in mind, I would place the majority of the blame on our dreadful education system - it's dreadful enough that even the children of "smart" people can turn out really quite stupid :wink:




Looks like you're dead wrong...

"For people living in the prevailing conditions of the developed world, IQ is highly heritable, and by adulthood the influence of family environment on IQ is undetectable. That is, significant variation in IQ between adults can be attributed to genetic variation, with the remaining variation attributable to environmental sources that are not shared within families. In the United States, marked variation in IQ occurs within families, with siblings differing on average by 12 points."

From wikipedia.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: fastfred]
    #5925003 - 08/02/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Some interesting tidbits relating to earlier posts...

Quote:

Several studies have investigated the relationship between intelligence and the degree of religious belief (excluding humanism), with most showing that intelligence averages decrease significantly with the "importance of religion" an IQ testee rates as apt.




Quote:

Persons with a higher IQ have generally lower adult morbidity and mortality. This may be because they better avoid injury and take better care of their own health, or alternatively may be due to a slight increased propensity for material wealth (see above).
...
On the other hand, higher IQ shows a higher prevalence of those suffering Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.





From wikipedia.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: fastfred]
    #5925151 - 08/02/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There was a very interesting debate about this topic in S&P about a year ago:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4228728#Post4228728


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Dysgenics [Re: Diploid]
    #5925168 - 08/02/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If I quit my church, will I suddenly become smarter?

No, but if you suddenly became smarter, you'd quit your church.



:grin:


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