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NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues?
    #5820931 -

Do you think NASA is being overly adventurous to proceed with the launch, to say the least? I also remember reading an article a couple of days ago that NASA estimated at 1% the chance of mission failure (no source though...) I mean, to start with, 1% is not that safe according to engineering standards. And now they find cracks and foam falling off the shuttle at liftoff...

Now, I understand NASA and the US may have certain obligations towards the International Space Station, but isn't the shuttle program doomed anyways? When you've already crashed two shuttles out of five, little red lights should show up somewhere. Why go ahead and risk more lives (and shitloads of money) instead of working on a new and simpler/safer spacecraft design?


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A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: RiverMan]
    #5820990 -

I watched the launch via NASA's stream. They commented a lot about the cracks and foam piece, how tiny it was, the process they went over to determine if it was safe, etc.

Apparently its only an issue for reentry, and they were going to check it out before they attempted. If its not safe, they will stay in the space station for 83 days and another shuttle will come up and rescue them.


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Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus!

quote]Urb said:
I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: RiverMan]
    #5822505 -

>  I also remember reading an article a couple of days ago that NASA estimated at 1% the chance of mission failure

There has always been around a 1 in 100 chance of failure with every shuttle launch.  The shuttle is the most complex machine ever designed or built by mankind.  Literally.

> I mean, to start with, 1% is not that safe according to engineering standards.

*laugh*  uh, ok... So what exactly, according to "engineering standards," is safe?  :rolleyes:

> And now they find cracks and foam falling off the shuttle at liftoff...

There have always been problems with the foam on the shuttle.  This is nothing new.  The only difference now is that they are paying closer attention to the cracks and that the reporters are writing about it.

> Do you think NASA is being overly adventurous to proceed with the launch,

No.  Everybody at NASA knows that if this shuttle is lost, the program is dead.    They aren't going to take any "overly adventurous" chances.

> Now, I understand NASA and the US may have certain obligations towards the International Space Station, but isn't the shuttle program doomed anyways?

Now, I understand that people have obligatioins in their everyday life, but shouldn't we all just kill ourselves since we are doomed to die anyways?

> Why go ahead and risk more lives (and shitloads of money) instead of working on a new and simpler/safer spacecraft design?

NASA does employ more than one person.  They are able to do more than one thing at a time.  Why do you think that there is no work being odne on a simpler/safer spacecraft design?  Do you honestly think that the people that fly the shuttle are the same people that design spacecraft?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: Seuss]
    #5823331 -

What I meant was I don't understand why NASA decided to continue with the Shuttle program following the Columbia crash. The obligations towards the space station should come third, after their responsibility to ensure safety to their astronauts and also responsibility towards american taxpayers. How much does it cost to keep 3 shuttles "operational" every year? How much did the Columbia disaster end up costing to Americans?

Personnally, I think it is more of a corporate/public-relation decision to keep them operational. Even though the Shuttles have served the US pretty good in the nineties, they cost so much over the years that NASA wants to use the most out of them. From a business perspective, it may seem reasonable to do so. But is it really the best thing to do when you put people's lives at risk? I mean, it's nice to go in outerspace and all, but if I were an astronaut I would kind of rethink about that 1 chance out of a 100... (edit: btw 14 of the 703 total crewmembers of all shuttle flights have perished, that's a 2% death rate)

And I know there probably are hundreds of people at NASA currently working on new designs (and probably have been for many years already), but it doesn't means they still have to use the Shuttles simply because there are 3 left. Why not go back to the good old stage rockets until a new design is chosen? I think NASA has proven they can handle that with fairly good results.

Edited by RiverMan (07/05/06 12:01 PM)

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: RiverMan]
    #5823452 -

It is difficult to put a price tag on the value of something like the shuttle program. The sheer volume of innovations that have produced consumer goods as a direct result of the shuttle program is almost uncountable. It is certain that the shuttle did not/does not produce the directly measurable profitability that was originally expected.

> btw 14 of the 703 total crewmembers of all shuttle flights have perished, that's a 2% death rate

Given the opportunity, I would fly on the shuttle without any hesitation, even if the numbers were much worse.

> Why not go back to the good old stage rockets until a new design is chosen?

Because there are many billions of dollars of projects in the pipeline that depend upon current shuttle technology. It would cost much more to retask those projects, adopting them to new technology, than it would be to continue using the shuttles. It may look simple on paper to replace the shuttle, but in reality, it is a much more complex issue than it seems.

The soviets retired their shuttle program before it got off the ground... well, almost... http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/spacecraft/q0153.shtml

> Why not go back to the good old stage rockets ... NASA has proven they can handle that with fairly good results.

We had a lot of problems, and loss of life, with those as well... but the technology is certainly cheaper and easier.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: Seuss]
    #5823486 -

personally i think that space exploration is essential to the survival of the human race, i do agree with what hawking said the other day about the eventual destruction of all of us through whatever means may cause it, plague, war, natural disaster, asteroid etc...

also nasa does more than just the shuttles, remember the mars rovers, still working?
its societal advancment, and there is no price on it, the value is infite.


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PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #5824149 -

I completely agree with you there. Sorry if I seemed to bash NASA in general, the point I was trying to make was really against the continuation of the Shuttle program.

But if we really wanted to make an advance in space exploration (or rather outer atmospheric exploration in this case) why encumber ourselves with five near-identical shuttles when technology is advancing at a far greater rate than the expected life span of those shuttles? I'm no expert on this kind of technology, but just think about all the necessary upgrades they must have made on the computational/control systems on board the shuttles over the past 25 years...

Maybe if we really want to achieve greater advancements in space exploration we should make a shift towards funding different private organizations instead of a singe government agency.


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A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: RiverMan]
    #5824414 -

I'd dare say that actually, computers are probably the less important part of a space craft. The computer I'm using to write this post is hundreds of times more powerful than those that sent people to the moon.

IMHO there are way more important factors like materials and, specially, combustibles, which are slowing the progress of space exploration.

Also you should take into account the obvious advantage that is having spaceships that are recoverable like the shuttle. Even if rockets are cheaper and safer (I'm not really sure about this, link?) they're a lot less flexible; A shuttle has virtually thousands of different uses -could the Hubble be repaired with a rocket?-

And just another thought: Which company would invest in exploring space? And which one does have that amount of money? :shrug:

PS:IMHO the real problem with space exploration is not as much technology as it is social momentum. There isn't a cold war going on now, and there aren't world potencies trying to go farther than the competition :shrug: There isn't enough will to archieve new goals.


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:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #5824964 -

I dont know what NASA's budget is off hand, but I hardly think its killing our tax dollars. I can probably think of 100 other things I would be more concerned about.

And 2% casualty rate for being launched into outerspace in a giant bomb? Sounds like they know what they are doing to me. I am sure your chance of dying tonight in a car wreck is greater than 2%.

Like the others here, I think this is a great step forward...and that NASA will not be forced into launching if they are not ready. Everyone there knows the risks, and they take them.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: tak]
    #5826638 -

> Even if rockets are cheaper and safer (I'm not really sure about this, link?) they're a lot less flexible;

I don't have a link, but it is true, and for the same reason... fewer moving parts and parts only have to survive one trip...

They are perhaps less flexible, but only in one category... bringing satelites back to earth for repair.  Unfortunately, it is cheaper to build and launch a new satellite rather than launching the shuttle, fetching, landing, fixing, and then relaunching the satelite.

The hubble could easily be serviced from a rocket or a shuttle.  The techniques may be a bit different, but the result would be the same (and cheaper with the rocket).

Don't get me wrong, I love the shuttle.  It is one of the most impressive engineering feats ever performed.  However, from a realistic standpoint, the market the shuttle was meant to fill never existed, and probably never will.

> Which company would invest in exploring space?

There are two private companies that I know of that are spending a lot of money on R&D trying to reach space.

> There isn't a cold war going on now

But we have China threatening the US moon monopoly... :wink:

>  I am sure your chance of dying tonight in a car wreck is greater than 2%.

Not even close.  Between 1996 and 2000, on average 114 people died per day in fatal car wrecks in the US.  I'm pretty sure more than 5700 people drove per day in the US over that time period.  During the same period, your chances of being killed while flying were 1 in 4178464 (0.00002%).


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: RiverMan]
    #5827006 -

There was an article in PM a few months ago about the new Shuttle search. Apparently, the designs are in, but NASA wont choose one until 2008. Its expected to become operational in 2014.

Here's a bit about the Lockheed design. I cant find if anyone else has submitted a design...I'm sure Northrop has, or someone else...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/1534782.html

A few highlights...No foam insulation, the entire body body is protected by a carbon-fiber heat shield. It wont fly like the space shuttle, but will instead parachute down and land on airbags. All the maintenence will be done by drone robots will will scuttle along the outside of the ship.

Wierd.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: NASA space shuttle Discovery safety issues? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5827010 -

nasa also mentioned the next shuttle design will be sans-foam.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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