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Drugs + Enlightenment
    #5214000 -

This post comes to the pub because it is continues from a previous thread about meditation being used to resolve conflict. * see http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5143096

I have recently been studying in the practive of Zen, it intrigues me because it is said that it can begin in belief and end in actual expirience , which seems realistic to me un-like the idea of heaven. I want to reach enlightment and eventually reache the state of having escaped suffering by exiting the cycle of life and death. It is a long difficult process, and can eventually (hopefully) become a serene journey.

This is where drugs come into play. I , myself am more concerned about the effects of Marijuana and Nicotene coming into play, but feel free to discuss usages of any substances.

People say that it is hard to meditate and clear mind when high, so meditation (something i have not yet dulged into) would probabaly be quite the struggle for me concidering im so used to being high. The ciggaretes as well calms me down with my nerves so in a way i would think being in an ideal relaxed physical + mental state should HELP SOMEONE on the path to enlightenment, however I could be wrong. Does being a pot-head slow some down in trying to ease a conflicted mind?

Another thing I would like cleared up about Buddhism.......

Amongst the ten activities that Buddhists are supposed to avoid is "the selling or buying of alcohol"

This is all i read so far on the topic, im no alcoholic but i do like to down my fareshare of rum every once in a while. However, it clearily forbids the "buying" or "selling" of alcohol. Does this mean that I am allowed to drink the booze just as long as I am not buying it? (or stealing it)

If you are not interested in Zen or Buddhism I apoligize for boring you.


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My statistical assumption is that chemical tapering should begin when the rate of visiting ODD exceeds the rate of visiting Pub, or any other Shroomery forum.

Edited by Nuggetpouch (01/23/06 12:54 PM)

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214008 -

Nuggetpouch said:
I want to reach enlightment and eventually reache the state of having escaped suffering


Nuggetpouch said:
would probabaly be quite the struggle for me concidering im so used to being high. The ciggaretes as well calms me down with my nerves so in a way i would think being in an  ideal relaxed physical +  mental state should HELP SOMEONE on the  path  to enlightenment, however I could be wrong.


I won't pretend to know about meditation, but if you are looking to rid yourself of struggle and suffering, then I suggest you face it head on(lay off the drugs) and overcome it.  If you are a slave to suffering(through addiction to escape with substances) then meditating is just another route out of reality instead of a tool to help you.  At least, that's how I see it :shrug:


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: daimyo]
    #5214012 -

daimyo said:
  If you are a slave to suffering(through addiction to escape with substances) then meditating is just another route out of reality instead of a tool to help you.  At least, that's how I see it :shrug:


Being a slave to suffering has nothing to with drugs, for me at least. If I was sober , drunk, stoned or tripping I will always have these horrible attachments to bad-memories. This is one of the reasons I am trying to get into Buddhisms is to rid myself of emotional attatchments. Meditation would probabaly never work as an escape from reality, I know this, I am NOT trying to replace my drug habbits with meditation.


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My statistical assumption is that chemical tapering should begin when the rate of visiting ODD exceeds the rate of visiting Pub, or any other Shroomery forum.

Edited by Nuggetpouch (01/23/06 01:04 PM)

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214023 -

Nuggetpouch said:
Being a slave to suffering has nothing to with drugs, for me at least. If I was sober , drunk, stoned or tripping I will always have these horrible attachments to bad-memories that I am trying to un-attatch myself from.


It's not so much the drugs, it's the addiction to escape. Whether through drugs or meditation you are trying to escape something. One thing I've learned in life is that no matter how long, or how far you run, whatever it is you are running from will catch up until you deal with it.
I don't know your memories, nor do I care to, but instead of trying to escape them I suggest attempting to confrtont, and accept them.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: daimyo]
    #5214032 -

I already have confronted and resolved. It is about them haunting me that I worry about. I have accepted that stuff happens but horrible expiriences are hard for me to get over, sometimes a bad expirience will pop into my head out of nowhere and completely change my attitude.

I would not say I use drugs to escape from reality. I use drugs because I LOVE the way they feel.


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My statistical assumption is that chemical tapering should begin when the rate of visiting ODD exceeds the rate of visiting Pub, or any other Shroomery forum.

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214058 -

Enlightened
in light, in light ..

the light of light..

etc..


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: Gomp]
    #5214063 -

:strokebeard:

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Re: Drugs + Enlightment [Re: Boom]
    #5214102 -

The reason you have memories of the past or worries of the future is because you, (as is almost everyone), are still controlled and manipulated by your worldly mind. When a being becomes enlightened the past and future become clear for what they really are, simple illusions.
It is our worldly minds that bring the memories back so vividly to haunt us. Once enlightened, the subject of "I don't want to quit drugs or drinking" becomes irrelevant, because those escapes from the worldly mind are no longer needed. By being enlightened you are living in a constant state of "being", or God-mind, and you no longer cling to worldly pleasures and pusuits.
The attachment to people, money, objects, emotions, etc. is what causes suffering, because all of those things are impermanent and eventually leave us. That is why you see people who are wealthy and can have or do what ever they want, yet they are still unhappy.
Why? Because as the old saying goes, true happiness comes from within, from your true being, not from the percieved outside world which is transitory and an illusion.


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:sunny: :sunny::sunny:

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214163 -

Interesting

I was thinking a similar way. I kind of find myself interested in getting very spiritual. I was thinking to myself, If I want to get spiritual, then I cant use drugs to do it.

When I am high, I can meditate like no other, and really change my state of mind. Though I feel.. If I really want to be spiritual, I have to do it on my own, without drugs, or essentially its the drugs doing the work, not my mind. Its not me.

Anyone else feel that way?


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TRUMP 2020

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: XUL]
    #5214215 -

Pot and Nicotine seem to be definite hindrances to clear seeing. Pot especially...

And if clinging is suffering, what is addiction but intense clinging? If you're truly serious, and it sounds like you are, I'd recommend taking steps to rid pot and nicotine from your life.

IMO the only drugs that don't counteract the effects of buddhist practice are psychedelics, taken rarely. Daily drugs like pot and ciggs are hindrances, imo.


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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214231 -

Meditation isn't about escape at all, its a practice of intense observation. I think some zen masters might argue that meditation is the opposite of escape, and is actually a technique for recognizing reality in its ultimate sense.

Drugs aren't going to be biggest hurdle if you are going to start meditating, believe me. Your biggest hurdle will be the millions of tiny things that you mind is constantly worrying about. If you really get into your meditation, those childhood memories are going to really come out, but hopefully in a way that you will be able to ultimately deal with them. If you can't understand them on your own, you can always get help.

And I don't know where you read this list of ten commandments for buddhists, but Zen Buddhism doesn't have dogma. Besides there are a lot of Zen masters who wrote about how the best thing to do with enlightenment is to come down off the mountain, happy and laughing and go get drunk in the village and have sex. Don't get enlightenment confused with the Christian notion of purity or grace.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214289 -

you know that almost always the mere wish for enlightenment is ego driven? and as long as this is the case enlightenment is pretty hard to achieve...


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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5214302 -

gluke bastid said:
And I don't know where you read this list of ten commandments for buddhists, but Zen Buddhism doesn't have dogma.


I read it in the book of Zen by David Weiss.

It says and I quote,

"Being a Buddhist thus means devoying yourself to following in the Buddha's footsteps. The 10 Abstentions are the actions that Buddhists are supposed to avoid. They are:

The Taking of Life
Theft
Lack of Chastity (vague)
Lying
Selling or buying alcohol
Speaking Ill of others
Praising onself
Giving spirutal or material aid grudgingly
Anger
Disparging Buddhist Doctrine

The 10 Abstentions make up one of The Three Treasures: cease evil deeds (10 Abstentions), practicing goodness to avoid evil, and s triving towards the liberation of every living being (that is, helping others to attain buddahood)"


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My statistical assumption is that chemical tapering should begin when the rate of visiting ODD exceeds the rate of visiting Pub, or any other Shroomery forum.

Edited by Nuggetpouch (01/23/06 03:10 PM)

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214321 -

Nuggetpouch said:
I want to reach enlightment and eventually reache the state of having escaped suffering by exiting the cycle of life and death.


me too.

Quote:
People say that it is hard to meditate and clear mind when high, so meditation (something i have not yet dulged into) would probabaly be quite the struggle for me concidering im so used to being high.


hard to say. it depends on what meditation is, which is not something that i really understand, marijuana helps you shave a lot of unnecessary thoughts out of the way, which can at times give you the proper environment to still the mind (i have stood "beneath" the generation of "verbal" thought and marveled in a more direct understand which I decided must be "zazen" once, and it was great, i took the smallest hits necessary to just get a buzz and spoke to myself in the mirror for a long while] but marijuana can also make you forgetful, hazy, dull, and subject to day dreaming. It can also reinforce cravings, such as me wanting to eat, or masturbate, or look at porn, and things like that. Cigarettes ONLY relax you because you are ADDICTED TO THEM you need to understand this. Nicotine is a STIMULANT, the only reason you are relaxed is because your body is CRAVING nicotine and you are ADDICTED to it.

If you are going to continue using tobacco and marijuana and are sincere in approaching meditation the best thing I can advise is that you never smoke ever again. ever. get a vaporiser and use it for both tobacco and marijuana.... if possible quit tobacco and stay on pot for a while, then consider quitting pot or limiting your intake. As for pot itself eating it would be even a better idea than vaporising as far as health goes. Vaporising is not "healthy" it's just healthier than smoking.

Your lungs and your breath are real important for meditation practice, and well.... I've only been smoking pot for a year and my lungs get fucked up if I smoke just maybe 2-3 times a week..... I've got to cut down or even stop.... stick to the vapor and the eating.
Quote:
Another thing I would like cleared up about Buddhism.......



The fifth precept that you take as a Buddhist is one against "intoxicants". I am not qualified enough to interpret what is meant... obviously alcohol is an intoxicant, being a poision, however marijuana and psilocybin and lsd, etc, are not "toxic" at all.

But keep in mind "intoxicant" is an English translation and they probably very well mean "don't get high or drunk".

But..... why? Well, because you have an attachment. Drugs are a lazy man's enlightenment...... but you know what, would any of us even get the slightest glimpse of the profoundity of existence in this lifetime had we not taken drugs? Many people become Buddhists after using psychedelics.... its a hard issue, and it would be something to talk to a very smart and well educated and wise Buddhist (in other words, one who is not following the DOGMA of the Buddhist religion, rather the inherent underlying spiritual teachings)

Basically though as far as alcohol goes, its okay to drink for flavor, or for health (wine sometimes, beer sometimes) but not for the intoxication purposes. I gather you could somewhat apply the same to EATING marijuana, if you put the dose in such a way as to only give you a mild relaxation once in a while.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: leery11]
    #5214340 -

leery11 said:
the best thing I can advise is that you never smoke ever again. ever.



MUCH MUCH MUCH easier said than done

leery11 said:
get a vaporiser and use it for both tobacco and marijuana.... if possible quit tobacco and stay on pot for a while, then consider quitting pot or limiting your intake.



Does tobacco work out of a vaporiser? if so that could be my ticket to stop smoking cigs. fuck nicotene gum,

but anyways thanks for all the really good advice everyone!


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My statistical assumption is that chemical tapering should begin when the rate of visiting ODD exceeds the rate of visiting Pub, or any other Shroomery forum.

Edited by Nuggetpouch (01/23/06 03:24 PM)

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5214356 -

^ yes absolutely tobacco works with vaporisers...
vaporgenie . com advertises their product soley for "tobacco" (though we know what it's "really" for)

and yeah everything is much easier said than done... i'm just trying to give you the best advice I have access to on the subject... I have difficulty in following much of what I'm saying.
daimyo said:
Nuggetpouch said:
Being a slave to suffering has nothing to with drugs, for me at least. If I was sober , drunk, stoned or tripping I will always have these horrible attachments to bad-memories that I am trying to un-attatch myself from.


It's not so much the drugs, it's the addiction to escape. Whether through drugs or meditation you are trying to escape something. One thing I've learned in life is that no matter how long, or how far you run, whatever it is you are running from will catch up until you deal with it.



This is very true, because you are simply running from yourself.

Meditation does not stop bad memories. It gives you perspective. I was in a horrible relationship, no matter what I do I will have those memories, more than likely at least until I go into the next life.... but what changes is how you react to them. You "rid" the negative associations, yes, but do NOT think of it in terms of "rid" because it's not like say, oh look a bad emotion, let's look at some swirling colors instead.... it can be gritty work.

You have to accept yourself. Your karma. Your sins. Your evils. Your goods. You have to accept the karmas and evils and sins and goods of the entire world. and you have to BREAK THROUGH with compassion so that you are no longer attached to any one set way of anything. A flower is as beautiful as a pretty girl........... a squirrel is as beautiful as a flower. Pollution is just as well as clean air (i suppose, but you'd want to seek out clean air for health reasons)

nirvana is attained, to the buddhists.... ONLY through human existence, and nirvana basically means that you have to turn this planet into a paradise, through your perceptual system. You come to find the "Buddha-nature" in all things, including Hitler... including Bush. Including dogs. Including horrible horrible things. You accept.... you love.

You escape suffering only by truely understanding the fundamental natures of suffering, which requires sincere humbling introspection. As they say, existence is suffering. That much I understand.... I have not contemplated the "nature of suffering is desire" enough to have a decent understanding though.

But I can tell you that you need to be more concerned with being peaceful in a normal life in the society and karma that you live in that you need be with breaking free and becoming enlightened, as that seems kind of escapist, and is an attitude that I have (I want to get the hell out of here!)

also, I do believe it possible to shed yourself of much karma by doing these things.... especially by meditating... but yeah, you're still stuck with the life you've made for you

Noviseer said:
IMO the only drugs that don't counteract the effects of buddhist practice are psychedelics, taken rarely. Daily drugs like pot and ciggs are hindrances, imo.


what makes you say so? I get this feeling of a purer form of consiousness from LSA than I ever do from pot....... but pot can be downright psychedelic at times, too.

I can't pinpoint it but part of me thinks that pot just turns you inward, to yourself.... but certain psychedelics (perhaps moreso organics?) turn you on to a specific .... higher frequency, a God if you will, or a higher plane of consciousness..... more external and differentiated from you, but still playing to your illusory grasping mind nature.

pot does the same but it takes you to your own inner planes, I dunno. It doesn't make sense particularly.

Marijuana definitely has a valid use for those who do psychedelics, but its hard to pinpoint and seems a bit less spiritual in nature. Maybe because it doesn't induce any sense of disorientation or uncomfort or ego-loss once you make the use habitual.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (01/23/06 03:33 PM)

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Nuggetpouch]
    #5215168 -

Nuggetpouch said:
I want to reach enlightment


what is enlightenment


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Drugs + Enlightenment [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5215366 -

i'm no expert,
but when i meditate while high or even days after smoking it's never as good as when i've been sober for a while.

my ending thoughts are usually something like this;
while high - "alright, time to stop, this doesn't feel very productive"
sober - /snaps back into reality/ "wow..."


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