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OfflineCatalysis
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Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak
    #5121735 - 12/30/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Justice Dept. Probing Domestic Spying Leak



By TONI LOCY, Associated Press Writer 7 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Justice Department has opened an investigation into the leak of classified information about President Bush's secret domestic spying program, Justice officials said Friday.

The officials, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the probe, said the inquiry will focus on disclosures to The New York Times about warrantless surveillance conducted by the National Security Agency since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The Times revealed the existence of the program two weeks ago in a front-page story that acknowledged the news had been withheld from publication for a year, partly at the request of the administration and partly because the newspaper wanted more time to confirm various aspects of the program.

Catherine Mathis, a spokeswoman for The Times, said the paper will not comment on the investigation.

Revelation of the secret spying program unleashed a firestorm of criticism of the administration. Some critics accused the president of breaking the law by authorizing intercepts of conversations ? without prior court approval or oversight ? of people inside the United States and abroad who had suspected ties to al-Qaida or its affiliates.

The surveillance program, which Bush acknowledged authorizing, bypassed a nearly 30-year-old secret court established to oversee highly sensitive investigations involving espionage and terrorism.

Administration officials insisted that Bush has the power to conduct the warrantless surveillance under the Constitution's war powers provision. They also argued that Congress gave Bush the power to conduct such a secret program when it authorized the use of military force against terrorism in a resolution adopted within days of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The Justice Department's investigation was being initiated after the agency received a request for the probe from the NSA.

Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has been conducting a separate leak investigation to determine who in the administration leaked
CIA operative Valerie Plame's name to the media in 2003.

Several reporters have been called to testify before a grand jury or to give depositions. New York Times reporter Judith Miller spent 85 days in jail, refusing to reveal her source, before testifying in the probe.

The administration's legal interpretation of the president's powers allowed the government to avoid requirements under the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in conducting the warrantless surveillance.

The act established procedures that an 11-member court used in 2004 to oversee nearly 1,800 government applications for secret surveillance or searches of foreigners and U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism or espionage.

Congressional leaders have said they were not briefed four years ago, when the secret program began, as thoroughly as the administration has since contended.

Former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said in an article printed last week on the op-ed page of The Washington Post that Congress explicitly denied a White House request for war-making authority in the United States.

"This last-minute change would have given the president broad authority to exercise expansive powers not just overseas ... but right here in the United States, potentially against American citizens," Daschle wrote.

Daschle was Senate Democratic leader at the time of the 2001 terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington. He is now a fellow at the Center for American Progress, a liberal Washington think tank.

The administration formally defended its domestic spying program in a letter to Congress last week, saying the nation's security outweighs privacy concerns of individuals who are monitored.

In a letter to the chairs of the House and Senate intelligence committees, the Justice Department said Bush authorized conducting electronic surveillance without first obtaining a warrant in an effort to thwart terrorist acts against the United States.

Assistant Attorney General William E. Moschella acknowledged "legitimate" privacy interests. But he said those interests "must be balanced" against national security.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5121917 - 12/30/05 10:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the DNC and the NY Times newsroom right now.

Here will be the 'spin'..'Leaker' will be replaced with 'whistleblower'..Whistleblower Protection Act will be cited numerous times by democrat stratergists and MSM.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5122956 - 12/30/05 02:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"ACLU Slams DOJ Investigation of NSA Whistleblower, Asks For Investigation To Be Called Off."



where was the ACLU on the Plame scam job???



http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/12/...-be-called-off/


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5123192 - 12/30/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
"ACLU Slams DOJ Investigation of NSA Whistleblower, Asks For Investigation To Be Called Off."

where was the ACLU on the Plame scam job???



I think the ACLU position is fairly simple: If no one's breaking any laws, secret activity should remain secret, or "need to know". If laws ARE being broken, then that should be corrected.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleSourceLimit
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5123394 - 12/30/05 04:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

But no laws were being broken - in this case

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Offlinelwm
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: SourceLimit]
    #5123927 - 12/30/05 06:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Can't stand it when WE call you on your bullshit eh redneck?

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: lwm]
    #5124058 - 12/30/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

First of all, any legal scholar will tell you that the legality of this is unclear and the SC hasn't ruled on it, but precedent has been set previously by other presidents. Second, we don't flame here.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5128948 - 01/01/06 04:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
Precedent has been set previously by other presidents.



I believe this was shown not to be the case in this thread:

The Top 12 Media Myths and Falsehoods on the Wiretapping, By Media Matters.org

Rather than posting a link to dozens of "related" cases, why don't you (or anyone else who believes precedent has been set for domestic spying without a warrant) just post their "favorite" case which demonstrates this.  :wink:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Catalysis]
    #5128964 - 01/01/06 04:25 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

put in a nutshell..bush&co are saying that it is an act of treason not to permit them to break the law...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5129398 - 01/01/06 07:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5129490 - 01/01/06 08:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The NSA did nothing illegal, nor did Bush.

Those who leaked the existence of the program, on the other hand, unquestionably did something illegal.



Phred


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5129550 - 01/01/06 09:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The NSA did nothing illegal, nor did Bush.



Maybe you missed the threads about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)??? FISA makes it a crime, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conduct electronic surveillance, except as "authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order." (link)
Quote:

Those who leaked the existence of the program, on the other hand, unquestionably did something illegal.



Is it illegal to report illegal activity???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5129584 - 01/01/06 09:25 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, because you can't expose Presidential misconduct during war time. Conveniently for the President, it will always be war time because the "war on terror" will never end.








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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5129602 - 01/01/06 09:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5130469 - 01/02/06 05:10 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe you missed the threads about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)???




Maybe you missed my posts in this thread -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5099465/an/0/page/2 , specifically my last post in the thread.

Congress cannot reduce the power constitutionally granted to the Executive any more than the Executive can reduce the power constitutionally granted to Congress. The Executive branch of the US government has the Constitutional obligation to defend the people of the United States during times of war. This defense of course extends to the surveillance of enemy belligerents, including their communications.

Quote:

FISA makes it a crime, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conduct electronic surveillance, except as "authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order.




Incorrect. There are dozens of well-recognized situations where warrantless searches are allowed. However, in the case of situations where FISA applies, warrants have been obtained. Over 5,000 of them since 2002.

Quote:

Is it illegal to report illegal activity???




Since what the president and NSA were doing is not illegal, the question has no relevance. However, exposing classified information in war time is illegal. No way to slice or dice that one. Some people are facing some heavy jail time for these revelations.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Redstorm]
    #5130473 - 01/02/06 05:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...




It is a matter of firmly settled case law that the operative word here is "unreasonable". It is not unreasonable to listen to the communications of enemy belligerents in time of war.



Phred


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5130588 - 01/02/06 08:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Maybe you missed my posts in this thread -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5099465/an/0/page/2 , specifically my last post in the thread.

Congress cannot reduce the power constitutionally granted to the Executive any more than the Executive can reduce the power constitutionally granted to Congress. The Executive branch of the US government has the Constitutional obligation to defend the people of the United States during times of war. This defense of course extends to the surveillance of enemy belligerents, including their communications.



I caught that and already replied to it. If you believe your own source, it read:

"There is one relevant constitutional provision that acts as a restraint on the President's inherent power as Commander in Chief. That is the Fourth Amendment..."

Quote:

Quote:

FISA makes it a crime, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conduct electronic surveillance, except as "authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order.




Incorrect. There are dozens of well-recognized situations where warrantless searches are allowed.



Once again, I replied to that as well. You provided not one example of a case in which domestic searches without a warrant was considered legal. All of them either showed domestic searches to be illegal, or they showed foreign searches to be legal. That's it. Hence my challenge in this thread to pick your BEST case showing domestic spying to be legal. No one's answered the challenge.
Quote:

However, in the case of situations where FISA applies, warrants have been obtained. Over 5,000 of them since 2002.



No one has an issue when a warrant was obtained.

Quote:

Since what the president and NSA were doing is not illegal, the question has no relevance. However, exposing classified information in war time is illegal. No way to slice or dice that one. Some people are facing some heavy jail time for these revelations.



It's been sliced and diced twice now. I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to provide your favorite case proving that domestic spying has a legal precedent. Not detention, not foreign spying. No one's done that yet. Is it perhaps because there really is no "slam dunk" precedent cases???

(Don't forget to read my reply to your post that you just linked to.)


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5130594 - 01/02/06 08:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
It is a matter of firmly settled case law that the operative word here is "unreasonable". It is not unreasonable to listen to the communications of enemy belligerents in time of war.



Here I agree with you. To date that precedent only applies to foreign belligerents. If I'm wrong, show me the precedent case.

Mind you, I don't have an issue with domestic spying if it's done with a search warrant per US Law (FISA) and the US constitution.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #5130800 - 01/02/06 10:26 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hence my challenge in this thread to pick your BEST case showing domestic spying to be legal.




As far as I know, eavesdropping by the NSA and POTUS on international calls during wartime has never been brought before a court so you can probably stop asking.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Justice Dept. Opens Investigation into Domestic Spying Leak [Re: Phred]
    #5131021 - 01/02/06 12:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...




It is a matter of firmly settled case law that the operative word here is "unreasonable". It is not unreasonable to listen to the communications of enemy belligerents in time of war.





Good for us our government is spending intelligence on PETA and various other nonprofits. Obviously, the war against animal cruelty directly conflicts with the war on terror. I know PETA members are annoying, but when did they become classified as enemy belligerents? :smirk:

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