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OfflineJeremy_Davis
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Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer
    #4647763 - 09/11/05 10:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Hey All,
I was just browsing the "possible applications for mycelia piss" post, going through it, seeing what people were saying. At the end it was closed because of a lack of fresh ideas. I hope this is okay, but I just wanted to add this to the pool of info we're all swimming in.

The question related to a possible uses for the metabolic exudate, or extracellular secretions of the mycelia (or mycelia piss).

I remember reading an article by John Holiday (of Aloha Medicinals, Inc.) that was presenting the case for the best medicinal mushroom preparations (Is it a tea, a capsule, a fruit body?). It goes on to describe the process by which Aloha Medicinals grows their mushrooms. Here it is from the article on Mushworld;

So in a nut shell the process that we developed is this:

1. Select species-specific substrate (or target-compound specific, as the case may be) for the mushroom in question.
2. Select the growth parameters of temperature, light, O2, etc. for the results desired.
3. Grow for lengthy periods of time (20-45 weeks) in glass containers, capturing all of the metabolic exudates. (This is the hard part; to grow the mycelium in their own metabolites without stunting the growth. Look at beer or wine production for example: the alcohol accumulation eventually stops the growth.)
4. Fruit the mushrooms in the glass container at the end of the growth term. (Yes, even including Cordyceps sinensis, see photos)
5. Harvest the whole thing. Mycelium, fruitbodies, primordia, all of the extra-cellular compounds which have been produced over the entire life cycle, and even some spore mass in many cases.
6. Dry, powder, package, sterilize and supply


If you notice, they are very interested in capturing the metabolic exudates, and go to great lengths to cultivate the mushrooms WITH the exudates (because they want to powder and encapsulate it).
The reason is because the metabolic exudates contain medicinal compounds NOT FOUND IN THE FRUITBODY OR MYCELIA. Here is his explanation from the article;

By growing the mushroom products this way, we gain the benefits of each phase of the life cycle. The fruitbody as has always been used, the mycelium, and all of the extra-cellulars, such as the anti-viral, and anti bacterial agents which the mycelium exudes in nature to limit the competitors in their normal environment.

Example
There are a number of drugs produced from Shiitake-Lentinula edodes; Lentinan (from the fruit body) LEM (from mycelium) and KS-2 (from residual culture broth). All of these compounds are present in our product. Same product - multiple modes of action.


The KS-2 from the culture broth is the exudates. The paper is titled

Mycelium? Fruitbodies? Extracts? Questions on Quality in Medicinal
Mushroom Products or What's the Best Stuff?
by John C. Holiday

So now that that's out there, maybe this will lead to fresh views. If not, the mods may delete this, no disrespect meant.
Light and Love,
Jeremy Davis


--------------------
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Offlineblackout
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: Jeremy_Davis]
    #4649180 - 09/12/05 04:55 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Very interesting Jeremy. Shirley has gone on a thread locking spree, never understood the problem with old posts, I spend a lot of time searching old posts and would like them to be correct or followed on if there is useful info in them, in reference to a new question.

There is very little on myc piss so I brought that post back from the dead after I read in TMC "causing the exudation of metabolites ("sweat") and the build up of fluids in which bacteria can thrive" the metabolites interested me.

The growing for lenghty times 20-45weeks is for collecting the metabolic exudates, but Mycofile has been talking about overincubated grains leading to much higher potency, I wonder if the 2 are related.


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OfflineInterested
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: blackout]
    #4649273 - 09/12/05 08:11 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

TMC, in one of the appendixes, gives the primary constituents of "sweat" as being (from memory, but suspect I'm correct) ethylene and acetone. Unless you want to ripen some fruit in a reeeally clean beaker, these won't be of much use.


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: blackout]
    #4649328 - 09/12/05 09:53 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah blackout, that was the first thing I thought about. But I would usually drain the piss out of the over-incubated grain. I'm sure a fair amount of piss was in the media itself and wouldn't drain out, and the sides often had a thin jelly like layer of waste that I wouldn't bother removing. I really don't know, but my initial thought was, hmm, does this have anything to do with my experiments?

Then my next thought is that no, it doesn't have anything to do with the piss, and maybe that dude isn't seeing benefits from the piss, maybe he's just seeing the benefits of over-incubation and could do without the piss?

Just my thoughts, not trying to turn this into an over-incubation thread. ..


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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineJeremy_Davis
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: mycofile]
    #4649823 - 09/12/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If you are talking about active mushrooms, then the meaning doesn't change. If there are bioactive compounds in Shiitake exudate that are unique and specific to the exudate. They are not formed in the fruitbody, nor in the mycelia. So if you are speaking of Psilocybe sp. mushrooms there may be a unique psychoactive substance (not psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, etc.) found in the mycelia piss. I don't see why not.
Aloha Medicinals dehydrates the entire product and encapsulates it, so instead of drinking (Ugggh!) mycelial piss, it's crystallized mushroom urine.
Food for thought! Anyone got HPLC or GC/MS? You could test for the presence or absence of different molecules from samples of the fruitbody and the exudate?
Light and Love,
JD


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: mycofile]
    #4649836 - 09/12/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Hi mycofile, I knew you drained the metabolites. I was thinking the same thing as you though. I was wondering if the guy was overincubating only to get the metabolites, or if he neglected to mention that it also leads to more metabolites in the fruitbodies too, with or without leaving it in the piss. Or if it was mentioned elsewhere in the paper that was not pasted here.

From TMC
Quote:

Mushroom mycelium releases several metabolites as it grows through a substrate, most importantly
C02. Other compounds identified by researchers as metabolic waste products include acetone,
ethanol and ethylene. Upon casing, the release of volatile metabolites from the spawned compost
or grain is drastically inhibited




Quote:

it's crystallized mushroom urine.



Thats what I was talking about in the now locked thread. Or you could soak semi dry shrooms in it and dry it into them. The thoughts of new compounds is fascinating.


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Edited by blackout (09/12/05 01:13 PM)


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OfflineJeremy_Davis
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: blackout]
    #4649968 - 09/12/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The idea of soaking the semi-dry mushrooms is amazing thinkning! That's what I was hoping for - okay who's going first?!


Edited by Jeremy_Davis (09/13/05 11:09 PM)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: Jeremy_Davis]
    #4650738 - 09/12/05 04:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This has nothing to do with what you guys have been talking about so far, and it's probably useless for most of us, but I came across this article in the course of my thesis research:

A. Ahmad, et al., J. Am. Chem. Soc. 124, 12108 (2002)

The researchers used the extracellular fluid from Fusarium oxysporum to reduce cadmium sulfate to CdS nanoparticles. Apparently, it worked equally well in a slurry of biomass, without killing the fungus. I managed to get a paragraph about that into my thesis : )

Since then I've seen a few more related articles including this one:

Langmuir. 2005 Aug 2;21(16):7220-4

I'll just paste the abstract:
Quote:

We show here that reaction of the fungus, Fusarium oxysporum, with the aqueous heavy-metal ions Pb2+ and Cd2+ results in the one-step formation of the corresponding metal carbonates. The metal carbonates are formed by reaction of the heavy-metal ions with CO2 produced by the fungus during metabolism and thus provide a completely biological method for production of crystals of metal carbonates. The PbCO3 and CdCO3 crystals thus produced have interesting morphologies that are shown to arise because of interaction of the growing crystals with specific proteins secreted by the fungus during reaction. An additional advantage of this approach is that the reaction leads to detoxification of the aqueous solution and could have immense potential for bioremediation of heavy metals. Under conditions of this study, the metal ions are not toxic to the fungus, which readily grows after exposure to the metal ions.




Fusarium species aren't mushrooms and don't form mycelium, but we don't discriminate, right? They still make fungus piss : )


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Offlineliveby
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4653683 - 09/13/05 02:55 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

eww


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OfflineJeremy_Davis
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: liveby]
    #4766239 - 10/06/05 11:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Just thought I'd pop this up to the top since the reason I posted this was based on research by John Holiday at Aloha Medicinals, and now he's registered here. John, what are your thoughts on this thread? Hope to hear from you.
Light and Love,
Jeremy Davis


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: Jeremy_Davis]
    #4776244 - 10/09/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

is this yellow stuff on top mycelium piss?



I have a glass soda bottle with a liquid
culture, It has mollasses and tapwater inside.
The mycelium has grown over the liquids surface.
Floating atop the mycelium strands are yellow liquid
droplets that are getting larger and larger.


Edited by 24HourToker (10/09/05 11:21 AM)


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: 24HourToker]
    #5514513 - 04/14/06 02:24 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hey All -

Has anyone learned more about the benefits or disadvantages of the metabolic wastes/exudate/piss ? I was hoping John (Aloha Medicinals) would be following this thread after registering. When I hear about acetone and ethylene (whether they are in liquid or crystal form), I am thinking - disadvantage instead of advantageous new/other components to consume. Anybody have any further ideas or information on the subject ?


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: liatris]
    #5515002 - 04/14/06 09:58 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

A lot has been learned since the mid 80's when paul wrote TMC. Mushroom metabolytes are no longer considered to be a 'waste product', but an antibiotic response to bacteria or competitor molds. Work is underway to determine the benefits of metabolytes in other applications. Wouldn't it be sweet if we could overincubate a jar to produce harvestable metabolytes, then use it to spray on a trich outbreak to squelch it? (just a theory at this point)

For the time being, I use the presence of large amounts of metabolyte in a jar to be the indication of bacterial contamination. Such jars are ok for spawning to bulk, but should be avoided for grain to grain transfers.
RR


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OfflineTweexican
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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5515652 - 04/14/06 01:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
For the time being, I use the presence of large amounts of metabolyte in a jar to be the indication of bacterial contamination. Such jars are ok for spawning to bulk, but should be avoided for grain to grain transfers.
RR




that makes so much sense Roger. Time and time again i've thrown away batches of G2G transfers lost to wetspot mold. I work in a flowhood and my jars are sterility tested and I've never known why I've had so many problems. For cloning, I've always chosen the jars that seem to have th emost aggressive growth. Mycelium piss to me has always been an indication that the mycelium is undering a purging due to excess nutrients. Now I know that it was the wrong way of looking at it.


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: Tweexican]
    #5515841 - 04/14/06 02:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I have some awesome material on this but it's copyrighted. I'll see if I can get permission to scan it as long as credit is given to the authors. In fact, I believe you can legally quote copyrighted research material as long as credit is given. Does anyone know for sure?
RR


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Re: Briefly Re-opening Mycelia piss applications -here's an answer [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5516219 - 04/14/06 04:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I just found this on http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#sued

"Could I be sued for using somebody else's work? How about quotes or samples?"

"If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you. There are circumstances under the fair use doctrine where a quote or a sample may be used without permission. However, in cases of doubt, the Copyright Office recommends that permission be obtained."

Also, about the "fair use" in the previous paragraph:
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: ?quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.?

Unless your going to use only certain passages, I probably wouldn't copy the whole thing... without permission.
Sivad


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