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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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sacrifise and prisons
    #4506621 - 08/07/05 12:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There is always a certain percentage of innocent people in prisons and even being executed.

Do you feel that they are a necessary sacrifice in order to detain those who really are guilty?

If not, what do you think should be done?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506732 - 08/07/05 01:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Do you feel that they are a necessary sacrifice in order to detain those who really are guilty?


Absolutely not. For every innocent person in prison, there is in those cases a guilty person probably walking around on the street.

Using your logic, why not lock up everyone so we don't miss any guilty people?

It's like in elementary school when everyone got punished because one knucklehead did something and no one wanted to be a snitch.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506759 - 08/07/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i understood it more like- the whole elementary class is guilty except one or two persons- if the majority is guilty, and your choice is to imprison the group or not- is it worth it to get at the majority of guilty people?

maybe its not even 1:1- maybe imprisoning one innocent person hurts everyone as much as hurt as is prevented by imprisoning two guilty people


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4506805 - 08/07/05 01:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

maybe its not even 1:1- maybe imprisoning one innocent person hurts everyone as much as hurt as is prevented by imprisoning two guilty people

Try again. Imprisoning one innocent person is like imprisoning that person plus his family and friends so it's more like x 10.

Check out the molest cases in Tulare County CA (Bakersfield) in the 1980s where innocent men were recently released after 20 years for crimes never committed. Think of the horror of being in California State Prison for 20 years being convicted of child molestation that never happened. The other convicts would still love to kill you if they knew of the nature of your "crime". The same DA who pressured kids to "cooperate" (lie) with the prosecution and get these convictions is still in office.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506825 - 08/07/05 02:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Do you feel that they are a necessary sacrifice in order to detain those who really are guilty?


Absolutely not. For every innocent person in prison, there is in those cases a guilty person probably walking around on the street.

Using your logic, why not lock up everyone so we don't miss any guilty people?

It's like in elementary school when everyone got punished because one knucklehead did something and no one wanted to be a snitch.




My logic? I'm not the one locking people up


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506834 - 08/07/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

the way I see it there are two choices:

1. cancel the prison system, let everyone go, so that all who were innocent do not suffer because of a faulty system

2. keep on doing what we do, accept that 10% of people in there are innocent


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506871 - 08/07/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

3. expect that prosecutors and police will be honest and fair.
4. expect that juries decide guilt based on "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not based on flimsy circumstantial evidence


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506883 - 08/07/05 02:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not doubting honesty and good will here (allthought there probably are violations of that)

I'm saying that even if everybody is honest and doing their job properly, statistically there will always be a number of innocent people in jails.

Sometimes someone is framed, sometimes he is just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

No level of investigation can absolutley prove someones guilt, but the legal system has to make a risk accoarding to the law of probability.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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OfflineSycronica
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4506893 - 08/07/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
the way I see it there are two choices:

1. cancel the prison system, let everyone go, so that all who were innocent do not suffer because of a faulty system

2. keep on doing what we do, accept that 10% of people in there are innocent




I think it is quite higher than 10%. Every single person in jail for personal posession or trafficing (provided there was no other charges involved) is guilty of hurting no one. And if you are hurting no one else then you are innocent. Because of our laws reguarding the illegal drug profit system of our govt many, many, many people are in jail who shouldn't be.


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Sycronica]
    #4506908 - 08/07/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

That is another question. For now we are talking about guilty people accoarding to government definition of guilty


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleBoondock
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4508066 - 08/07/05 09:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

the US has 2.3 million people incarcerated at the moment.

the US has more than doubled the amount of people behind bars since 1980

Number of sentenced inmates incarcerated under State and Federal jurisdiction per 100,000 population

1980 139
1981 154
1982 171
1983 179
1984 188
1985 202
1986 217
1987 231
1988 247
1989 276
1990 297
1991 313
1992 332
1993 359
1994 389
1995 411
1996 427
1997 444
1998 461
1999 476
2000 478
2001 470
2002 476
2003 482

*info from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/incrttab.htm


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Look within.
Be still.
Free from fear and attachment
know the sweet joy of the way.
Buddha



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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4508932 - 08/08/05 01:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

3. expect that prosecutors and police will be honest and fair.
4. expect that juries decide guilt based on "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not based on flimsy circumstantial evidence




i already expect that prosecutors, police, and juries do these things. yet some seem to be dishonest, unfair, and/or fickle despite my expectations.

can expecting be expected to resolve any dilemmas?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4509768 - 08/08/05 08:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Honesty and hard work would not keep innocent people out of prisons.
Sometimes the system just makes a mistake. It is unavoidable.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGrav
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4509894 - 08/08/05 10:20 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

it is an unacceptable evil

i heard somewheres that it would be better for 100 guilty men to go free than 1 innocent man to be imprisoned. i agree with that.


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OfflineZephid
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Grav]
    #4510036 - 08/08/05 11:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Then how do you propose that we punish criminals? It is impossible to come up with a system the will ensure that there are absolutely no mistakes other than simply let every one get away with everything. I don't think letting people get away with murder will encourage a peaceful society. In fact a lot more innocents would probably have their lives ruined by crime if you removed, or even significantly lessened punishments then are currently ruined by false convictions.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Zephid]
    #4510155 - 08/08/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i understand your logic but i dont care... i would chose the wrath of increased crimerates over knowing good men are in cages. life can never be totally secure.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Grav]
    #4510178 - 08/08/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

and the peace of our society doesn't rely on how packed our prisons are, it relies on the responsibility of a community to have a presence.


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OfflineZephid
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Grav]
    #4510326 - 08/08/05 02:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Its not just that we couldn't use prisons, but that we couldn't use any form of punishment at all without risking hurting innocents. If we reduced the punishments enough that it wouldn't be hurting people who are falsely convicted then it also wouldn't serve to dissuade criminals. While its true that even without consequences most people wouldn't walk around killing there are enough twisted people who would to make that type of policy a disaster. The government would be hurting people through inaction rather that action. How is that better.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: sacrifise and prisons [Re: Zephid]
    #4511177 - 08/08/05 07:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i am not condemning incarceration. i think its very necessary to seperate violent and stupid people from the rest of us who know how to get along.

im just saying i'd rather deal with a criminal back on the street than an innocent person thrown in jail.

maybe if i was a gas station clerk or a small female then i would think differently.


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