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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Imprisonment/Jail is wrong?
    #3298365 - 10/30/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It had never occured to me before, until a very brilliant friend of mine once mentioned to me that they felt any sort of jailing and imprisonment is wrong. I brushed it off as ludicrous (long time ago). Recently, I'm not sure how it came up, but I have been thinking about the wrongness of prison.

I can imagine nothing worse than locking someone up in a cage. Of course we would think this horrible for an innocent person, but for reasons of punishment and to "keep them off the streets" we jail criminals. (taking this community into account, obviously we are already assuming that it is wrong to jail drug users). But should even serious criminals be forced to waste their lives away in a cage? There is something very valuable about human life, and even if someone does not mesh well with the laws of society, does this automatically make their life completely worthless?

I think that even extreme torture (assuming it is not permanently damaging) would be far more humane than jail. Ten days of excruciating mental and physical horror in the place of ten years of prison.

I haven't really thought this out too much, and I'm just throwing this out here for anyone who too has thoughts exploring the possibility of jail as a wrong. Thoughts?

Also, if anyone knows of any philosophers who have explored this issue, I would love to hear about this so perhaps I could do some reading to explore the issue.


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OfflineCrispyInfidel
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3298383 - 10/30/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I like the idea of intensive labor. Because it's still punishment, but it's not worthlessly wasting away in a 10 by 10 burning up tax money. Havn't really put too much thought into this, I am interested now.

However, I don't like you idea of extreme torture. That'd be like taking several steps back towards the dark ages.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3298386 - 10/30/04 08:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Personally, I advocate rehabilitation first and foremost, and only imprisonment as the final and last resort - if all else truly fails.



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Invisibleblink
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3298392 - 10/30/04 08:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

it's better to give them time to think about how they will never be happy again than torture them. And I mean this for violent and sexual offenders.

I would rather offenders that victimize children be in there with each other and never see free life again than out murdering children...

Maybe you think that behavior can be rehabilitated. I do not.

/edit: and they shouldn't be living comfortably either.

This applies for people that are trully fucked up, not just a guy who gets in a fight at a bar and the yuppe that picked a fight with him presses charges. This is for the guy that murdered and entire family and their dog over an X box with his friends


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: blink]
    #3298407 - 10/30/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ever been to a zoo?

death sentace is not wors than jail, it is to be set free :P hehe


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Gomp]
    #3298438 - 10/30/04 08:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
ever been to a zoo?

death sentace is not wors than jail, it is to be set free :P hehe




!:thumbup:!



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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: CrispyInfidel]
    #3298451 - 10/30/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How is torture worse than imprisonment?

I personally think I would much rather spend 10 days being tortured than wasting away 10 years. I think it is far more humane to make whatever punishment delivered to be as fast as possible. If 10 days of torture can be as crime-deterring as 10 years of prison, I say go for it so people can get back on with their lives.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: blink]
    #3298474 - 10/30/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I certainly have a very tough time assigning any sort of value or right to happiness for those who commit serious crimes such as murder, rape, child molestation, etc. but I suspect that it is possible to philosophically defend their freedom.

I am not saying we should keep these people in our society unrehabilitated so that they can commit crimes again. But as long as they are no longer able to do harm, I don't think anyone gains from their "punishment".

I could think of some sort of "send them to another planet" type scenario as being best, but thinking from the perspective of the real world, it makes no sense to waste our resources to help criminals live a better life, even if it were the right thing to do.


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Offlineel_malibu
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3298618 - 10/30/04 09:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This is one thing I think about all the time, or at least along the lines of jail. My answer to wether jail is right or wrong is rather shocking, and even covers why people do the things they do and why the world is not perfect. The answer is greed?
Think about it. Why do people want to win races, be the first to do someting, be famouse? Or what about even bad things such as to kill someone, steal, rape, or ect. It is greed that is responsible for this. The need to have something more than something else. With out this need there is no life, becuase there would be no compition for food, shelter and habbitat, and life could not excist.
So as long as there is greed we will need jail, but with out it I don't think that we could excist. Kind of shocking isn't it. So in other words for there to be a perfect world with no jail, there would be no world!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3299552 - 10/31/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have been in jail for a short time before and while I did NOT like it, I do not view it as worse than torture. I would not have wanted to be tortured instead. Sometimes people need to be isolated from their fellow humans for a time due to behaviors they might be exhibiting. Sometimes, in the case of child rapists and serial killers, they need to be killed because they represent a serious danger to the rest of society. This is not a punishment, but a practical measure. To say that someone who is a danger to the rest of our race has rights to stay free is ludicrous.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3300609 - 10/31/04 10:30 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think about this a lot. Like hue said, I could not be okay with letting serial rapists, murders and child molestors run around. Traditional jail isn't the answer either.

What I think about mostly is the prevention end of it. How is it that people end up there, I mean become such a threat to the safety and well being of others that they have to be locked away from society for life?

I think martha Stewart being in jail is STUPID. Please, she should have been ordered to pay huge fines and had been sentenced to community service. Which one of us wouldn't have sold those shares? The fuck who leaked the information broke the insider trading laws the way I see it.

I would feel safe to let here be alone with my daughter, please. Tax payers are feeding this woman now wtf?

I wishhhhhhhhh that as a society, we would put 100% emphasis and focus on raising, mentally and emotionally healthy children. It's fucked that society crams the 3 Rs , greed for more, and competition mentality down their throats from day one with little care given to their mental and emotional health and well being.

It's our freaking priorities as a collective that are fucked up. Higher evolved societies off planet, raise healthy community minded individuals first. The speacialised learning comes much later in the game.

People who hurt others are people who are hurting themselves and can't deal with it so they take out those uncontrolable thoughts and emotions on others in word and action.

A study was done that revealed ALL persons in jail for violent crime were physically, mentally and emotionally abused as children. NOT all people who were end up vilolent adults. Goes to show some were and are able to rehabilitate themselves, so there is a way. Why are not all people being reached with this way where damage has already been done?

Then prevention has to kick in from there. I think of the classes I had to take in HS that are useless to me now. I see parents who are clueless and repeating destructive cycles with there own kids. I wonder why parenting and child development classes are not mandetory in HS.

I'm not blaming parents, because they were once abused kids too, who wern't taught another way to raise their own. Some people just can't overcome the ways of their parents and become just like them instead. Society has to intervene and start turning these cycles around for preventon purposes. It's going to take a change of priorities first.

I agree, jail doesn't cut it, we can do better as a collective of intelligent people. Prevention is everything and rehabilitation for those who didn't get in on prevention and for those who are beyond help, if there is such a thing, jails all we got right now.


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Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/31/04 10:43 AM)


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Offlinepsyched
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3300611 - 10/31/04 10:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
How is torture worse than imprisonment?

I personally think I would much rather spend 10 days being tortured than wasting away 10 years. I think it is far more humane to make whatever punishment delivered to be as fast as possible. If 10 days of torture can be as crime-deterring as 10 years of prison, I say go for it so people can get back on with their lives.




Even 3 days of torture would most likely have a huge negative impact on your psyche.
10 days would probably make you seem like Hannibal Lecter gone bad.

I find it disgusting how this so called "justice" is just vengeance, hatred, fear and anger in disguise.
Too bad noone's gonna wake up and realise we need to remove the reasons and motives to commit violent acts, rather than create more victims.
As for crimes that don't hurt anyone but yourself, they shouldn't be crimes. But that's a different discussion.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3300612 - 10/31/04 10:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think the primary purpose of imprisonment should be to keep dangerous people from harming others. They may try to rehabilitate them in the process, but the primary goal is to keep the general population safe. Punishment may factor into it, but I don't believe that should be the main purpose.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3300865 - 10/31/04 01:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think what got me thinking about this stuff was the recent arguments over california's three strikes law. Good ol' Arnie wants to keep the laws in place, and keep more people in jail, people who are nonviolent offenders and who are just draining tax money.

I think it is pretty sick how numb people can be to the plights of others. People don't care who is in jail, they just assume they are bad people and should be there.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone really understood where i was trying to take this thought. I was kind of looking at it from a pro-life standpoint. That everyone has a right to life (jail is not life). At what point does a person lose their right to life?


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Invisibletracing
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Re: Imprisonment/Jail is wrong? [Re: psyched]
    #3300870 - 10/31/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

which is why she wrote "(assuming it is not permanently damaging)"

10 years into 10 days of torture?, that would have to be painfull beyond imagination, I dont see how you could not scar the person for life


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